| Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: Jake]
#237467 09/13/11 08:43 AM 09/13/11 08:43 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | On the speed trial, the fast boat did 500 meters in 39 seconds, so...what's that in Knots?
Anybody got a calculator handy? Why don't they display the actual GPS speeds somewhere on the screen?
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: Timbo]
#237470 09/13/11 08:45 AM 09/13/11 08:45 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I liked the discussion on the fleet race regarding how hard the "slam dunk" maneuver is for multihulls and how Artemis got spit out the back on that one tack.
Given the slow turns, should they be pulling up the boards sooner to expedite? Are they not hauling in the jib fast enough? What else could they do?
Jay
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#237474 09/13/11 09:20 AM 09/13/11 09:20 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I liked the discussion on the fleet race regarding how hard the "slam dunk" maneuver is for multihulls and how Artemis got spit out the back on that one tack.
Given the slow turns, should they be pulling up the boards sooner to expedite? Are they not hauling in the jib fast enough? What else could they do? Artemis had a gear failure, that's why the passes looked so dramatic. They pulled the plug right then. The speeds they are going and the height gained from the apparent wind makes the slam dunk with gains close to impossible.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#237476 09/13/11 09:28 AM 09/13/11 09:28 AM |
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 172 Anacortes Sloansailing
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Posts: 172 Anacortes | But did you see Spithill pull off a great lee bow on TNZ, only to have TNZ tack perfectly at the course boundary to stay in the lead (no penalty), and then loose it when they had to pass Artemis in said gear failure!?! Though they still could have stayed ahead if they didn't have such a crappy tack at the top mark. Anyone who still says the boats don't make good match racing is full of ****. The fact that it is difficult to tack the boats actually makes the racing more interesting, not less.
Anacortes Rigging.com Rigging and Yacht Services
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: Timbo]
#237491 09/13/11 11:11 AM 09/13/11 11:11 AM |
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 443 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada bobcat
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Posts: 443 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada | On the speed trial, the fast boat did 500 meters in 39 seconds, so...what's that in Knots?
Anybody got a calculator handy? Why don't they display the actual GPS speeds somewhere on the screen? I thought I saw 37.48 seconds and this computed to 13.34 meters/second for 500 meters. 13.34 (meters / second) = 25.93 knots | | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#237503 09/13/11 12:43 PM 09/13/11 12:43 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I liked the discussion on the fleet race regarding how hard the "slam dunk" maneuver is for multihulls and how Artemis got spit out the back on that one tack.
Given the slow turns, should they be pulling up the boards sooner to expedite? Are they not hauling in the jib fast enough? What else could they do? Artemis had a gear failure, that's why the passes looked so dramatic. They pulled the plug right then. The speeds they are going and the height gained from the apparent wind makes the slam dunk with gains close to impossible. Yet, they keep trying it again and again. I was yelling at the screen when Oracle4 choose to tack instead of cross NZ just before they were able to use Artemis as a pick due to their breakage. The more efficient the boat, the less dirty air it leaves behind it and the less likely you are to sit on our opponent. Go for the cross and try to keep your nose clean to reserve starboard advantage the next time it counts.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: Jake]
#237508 09/13/11 12:52 PM 09/13/11 12:52 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | What's the "hobble" on the jib? The announcers kept referring to that as one of the reason several boats went over, or at least nearly over (the boats that flipped weren't able to release the jib because it was in the "hobble").
Again, the onboard mics were great. In the one capsize where they nearly saved it (except for the jib stuck in the "hobble"), you could hear someone on the boat saying, "We're OK, we're OK" as the bows came up and the boat rounded to weather. Of course, with the jib not being blown, it was only a matter of time before they went over...
As for their boat-on-boat tactics, it still amazes me that they even try for leebows or slam dunks. Especially after the completely disastrous "gybe to cover" in Portugal, you would think they would have realized by now that the speed of these boats is just not going to allow those sorts of maneuvers to pay, especially in the open water at the middle of the course. Maybe near a mark rounding. Maybe...
Mike | | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: brucat]
#237521 09/13/11 01:37 PM 09/13/11 01:37 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I think this is the deal. They are short a winch on those boats so when it comes time to Hoist( I think that's the task) the gennaker they blow off the jib sheet which has a line tied to the clew that limits the ease while they are hoisting the gennaker. That way it's not just flogging but still powering along a bit. problem comes when you need to ease past that point.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#237526 09/13/11 02:14 PM 09/13/11 02:14 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | I think this is the deal. They are short a winch on those boats so when it comes time to Hoist( I think that's the task) the gennaker they blow off the jib sheet which has a line tied to the clew that limits the ease while they are hoisting the gennaker. That way it's not just flogging but still powering along a bit. problem comes when you need to ease past that point. I hear what you're saying (and you're probably close), but I know I saw at least one boat raising the kite manually (same as on a F18, but with two guys pulling the halyard from the base of the mast). I was quite startled by this, and commented to my wife while we were watching: "Why are they doing that? They have winches on these boats!" I didn't get anything from that clip above to explain the hobble... EDIT: I just looked at dictionary.com, and while they don't list a sailing definition, the common definition (noun) has a variant that makes some sense in light of where you're going. I'm sure they've be revisiting this as a good idea going forward... As for the speed runs, I agree that it's awkward that they don't give a real-time speed, as well as max and average speeds at the end of the run. Not important to the goal, but fun nonetheless, and it's not like they have a shortage of instruments or data! I did like the red line showing the leader's pace as each successive boat went through the run. Mike
Last edited by brucat; 09/13/11 02:25 PM.
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: brucat]
#237527 09/13/11 02:45 PM 09/13/11 02:45 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I think this is the deal. They are short a winch on those boats so when it comes time to Hoist( I think that's the task) the gennaker they blow off the jib sheet which has a line tied to the clew that limits the ease while they are hoisting the gennaker. That way it's not just flogging but still powering along a bit. problem comes when you need to ease past that point. I hear what you're saying (and you're probably close), but I know I saw at least one boat raising the kite manually (same as on a F18, but with two guys pulling the halyard from the base of the mast). I was quite startled by this, and commented to my wife while we were watching: "Why are they doing that? They have winches on these boats!" I didn't get anything from that clip above to explain the hobble... EDIT: I just looked at dictionary.com, and while they don't list a sailing definition, the common definition (noun) has a variant that makes some sense in light of where you're going. I'm sure they've be revisiting this as a good idea going forward... As for the speed runs, I agree that it's awkward that they don't give a real-time speed, as well as max and average speeds at the end of the run. Not important to the goal, but fun nonetheless, and it's not like they have a shortage of instruments or data! I did like the red line showing the leader's pace as each successive boat went through the run. Mike It may be topping off the hoist or trim on the genny then, but somebody explained during the racing that some of the teams if not all used a tether/hobble because they were short one winch. When I get my turn (I wish) on an AC-45 I'll let you know for sure.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: Tony_F18]
#237528 09/13/11 02:52 PM 09/13/11 02:52 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Structural hull damage.If they can fix everything by tomorrow's race start that will be incredible. I hope some onboard footage comes out of that after they analyze it. Sounds like it was pretty brutal.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: brucat]
#237530 09/13/11 03:08 PM 09/13/11 03:08 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | What's the "hobble" on the jib? The announcers kept referring to that as one of the reason several boats went over, or at least nearly over (the boats that flipped weren't able to release the jib because it was in the "hobble").
Again, the onboard mics were great. In the one capsize where they nearly saved it (except for the jib stuck in the "hobble"), you could hear someone on the boat saying, "We're OK, we're OK" as the bows came up and the boat rounded to weather. Of course, with the jib not being blown, it was only a matter of time before they went over...
As for their boat-on-boat tactics, it still amazes me that they even try for leebows or slam dunks. Especially after the completely disastrous "gybe to cover" in Portugal, you would think they would have realized by now that the speed of these boats is just not going to allow those sorts of maneuvers to pay, especially in the open water at the middle of the course. Maybe near a mark rounding. Maybe...
Mike I had assumed that "hobble" was the announcer's term for a winch but after looking it up (dictionary), I'm assuming it's a line used to limit the outward travel of the jib as someone else mentioned. Which could easily explain why it was such an issue if the hobble was too short.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: brucat]
#237534 09/13/11 05:10 PM 09/13/11 05:10 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Or just put the right amount of winches on the boat to begin with.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: AC 45s at Plymouth
[Re: macca]
#237551 09/14/11 05:27 AM 09/14/11 05:27 AM |
Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,584 +31NL Tony_F18
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