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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #237529
09/13/11 02:55 PM
09/13/11 02:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
No canted hulls? Are they allowed in F-16?
If the illustration is correct, it looks like the design incorporates canted daggers. Up to 6 degrees from vertical is allowed.

Thanks for sharing Dave & Karl.


Kris Hathaway
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: David Ingram] #237531
09/13/11 03:14 PM
09/13/11 03:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
That is pretty unprofessional.


Yeah W - T - F Karl? Keep it up and momma is gonna give you a strong talkin to, and you really don't want that.


Holy crap, how in the world is my comment viewed as negative? I've been anxiously awaiting this thing for well over a year.


I'm boatless.
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Karl_Brogger] #237532
09/13/11 03:52 PM
09/13/11 03:52 PM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Holy crap, how in the world is my comment viewed as negative? I've been anxiously awaiting this thing for well over a year.


Have you met Karl Brogger?

Just so we're clear I'm just having a little fun with you Karl.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: David Ingram] #237536
09/13/11 07:00 PM
09/13/11 07:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Please explain why a new boat made of carbon would be made so much heavier than the class minimum weight? Seriously, I do not understand. And why would anyone pay so much for a boat that starts off being so much heavier than minimum? Again, I truly do not understand, so I am looking just for straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mike Fahle] #237539
09/13/11 07:23 PM
09/13/11 07:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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So what are the prices of the main F16s available then? I would suspect that a new Viper is near that, with maybe the Falcon being less expensive? I think they are probably within 2k from each other.
This sport is getting pricey!!

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: PTP] #237540
09/13/11 07:58 PM
09/13/11 07:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by PTP
So what are the prices of the main F16s available then?


Depends on the dealer. What Mike quoted is exactly I've been selling Vipers for.


I'm boatless.
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mike Fahle] #237544
09/13/11 09:50 PM
09/13/11 09:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline OP
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Its a lot of cost to come up with all new tooling for beams, mast, rudders etc. If you are starting from scratch and don't have any tooling then you have to make it anyway and so why not make it light but if you already have the beams, mast then just use what you have. As for the hulls, not sure what they weigh but its a tradeoff of cost vs strength vs lightness and you can't have all three.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mike Fahle] #237549
09/14/11 01:57 AM
09/14/11 01:57 AM
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Brisveagas
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Because if you read the drawing more carefully it says that the construction is Epoxy, Glass and carbon. Not all carbon. Probably a bit of carbon slapped in where it matters most.

Personally i think its great that its a similar weight to the viper. Looks really cool.

Last edited by Aido; 09/14/11 02:13 AM.

Aido
Viper 288
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Aido] #237550
09/14/11 02:41 AM
09/14/11 02:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
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Maybe i open the pandora box.
What me is surprising the most time is that most sailors are accepting a boat above 120kg but allowed is a weight of 107kg according the class rules. I do not understand why racers are not saying to builders "I want to have a boat to class weight". It looks like the sailors are just running after the builders and think ok this is it. I have experienced in A-class that when a boat is 2 kg above weight the sailor is very unhappy with this and in F16 we talk about more then 15 to 20 kg ?????? over weight.
I say this as a builder and sailor and it is surprising me over and over again because it is possible to build to 107 kg in glass/alloy combi and the price is still not exceptional different( read higher )
Just wondering.

Hans

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mike Fahle] #237552
09/14/11 06:37 AM
09/14/11 06:37 AM
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Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Please explain why a new boat made of carbon would be made so much heavier than the class minimum weight? Seriously, I do not understand. And why would anyone pay so much for a boat that starts off being so much heavier than minimum? Again, I truly do not understand, so I am looking just for straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.


The weight for a sloop rigged Taipan is 102kg. This is for a glass boat that

- Has no spinnaker gear
- Much less volume in the hulls
- Very small and underbuilt beams.
- Boat is not truly built to take the loads of a spinnaker boat including hull volume.

Yet, the F16 class rules were based of the Taipan 4.9 with a few extra kgs tagged on for spinnaker gear.

There are still a lot of people who believe 107kg is too light for a glass boat with alloy beams and mast, especially if the beams and hulls are built to a size and volume need to remain competitive as a spinnaker boat.

Adding carbon costs $$$. Every other class knows this. AHPC is, and Narca will likely produce a boat 20kg heavier without the extensive use of exotics because they believe they can still produce a boat that will be competitive with the current fleet, engineering in more volume and platform stiffness. If they spent more $$$ and built it out of carbon, down to 107kg, then the boat would be quicker however it will be significantly more expensive. They would also unlikely sell many boats despite the performance advantage.

Not everyone here will share these views, but many outside this F16 forum do.


Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #237553
09/14/11 07:11 AM
09/14/11 07:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 118
Pensacola, FL
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Cab Offline
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Pensacola, FL
When compared to current F16 designs, it looks like nacra went with significantly more curve in the rocker from the front beam up to the bow and less freeboard in the bow. Anybody know the design theory behind this?


Chris
Trident F16
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #237557
09/14/11 08:05 AM
09/14/11 08:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Please explain why a new boat made of carbon would be made so much heavier than the class minimum weight? Seriously, I do not understand. And why would anyone pay so much for a boat that starts off being so much heavier than minimum? Again, I truly do not understand, so I am looking just for straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.


The weight for a sloop rigged Taipan is 102kg. This is for a glass boat that

- Has no spinnaker gear
- Much less volume in the hulls
- Very small and underbuilt beams.
- Boat is not truly built to take the loads of a spinnaker boat including hull volume.

Yet, the F16 class rules were based of the Taipan 4.9 with a few extra kgs tagged on for spinnaker gear.

There are still a lot of people who believe 107kg is too light for a glass boat with alloy beams and mast, especially if the beams and hulls are built to a size and volume need to remain competitive as a spinnaker boat.

Adding carbon costs $$$. Every other class knows this. AHPC is, and Narca will likely produce a boat 20kg heavier without the extensive use of exotics because they believe they can still produce a boat that will be competitive with the current fleet, engineering in more volume and platform stiffness. If they spent more $$$ and built it out of carbon, down to 107kg, then the boat would be quicker however it will be significantly more expensive. They would also unlikely sell many boats despite the performance advantage.

Not everyone here will share these views, but many outside this F16 forum do.



You do not need to have an all carbon boat to get to 107 kg, i used the proof in France the boat was below weight with only a carbon mast and for the rest alloy and glass fiber. I weighted the boat at the shop with an alloy mast and it was 107,3 kg. There was no exotic material only in the daggers and rudders but is needed of strength.
The beams used where having close the same size as on the Viper and similair to the Nacra F18 beams ( a bit bigger actually but mm's ).
But this is not the topic, i was wondering why the sailors are not demanding the builders to build a boat close to the edge of the class rules and are just running behind the builders like cheaps. I try to get an answer for this.

Hans

Last edited by Hans_Ned_111; 09/14/11 08:06 AM.
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #237558
09/14/11 08:37 AM
09/14/11 08:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
M
mini Offline
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Posts: 141
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Please explain why a new boat made of carbon would be made so much heavier than the class minimum weight? Seriously, I do not understand. And why would anyone pay so much for a boat that starts off being so much heavier than minimum? Again, I truly do not understand, so I am looking just for straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.


The weight for a sloop rigged Taipan is 102kg. This is for a glass boat that

- Has no spinnaker gear
- Much less volume in the hulls
- Very small and underbuilt beams.
- Boat is not truly built to take the loads of a spinnaker boat including hull volume.

Yet, the F16 class rules were based of the Taipan 4.9 with a few extra kgs tagged on for spinnaker gear.

There are still a lot of people who believe 107kg is too light for a glass boat with alloy beams and mast, especially if the beams and hulls are built to a size and volume need to remain competitive as a spinnaker boat.

Adding carbon costs $$$. Every other class knows this. AHPC is, and Narca will likely produce a boat 20kg heavier without the extensive use of exotics because they believe they can still produce a boat that will be competitive with the current fleet, engineering in more volume and platform stiffness. If they spent more $$$ and built it out of carbon, down to 107kg, then the boat would be quicker however it will be significantly more expensive. They would also unlikely sell many boats despite the performance advantage.

Not everyone here will share these views, but many outside this F16 forum do.
The Taipan is 30+ year old technology.

As Hans seems to point out above, 1 builder elects to take the easy rout in building a boat and there ends up being a group of bandwagon fans adopting their sales pitch as gospel.

F18 beams, castings and foils are not required to make a stiff boat. It is just being lazy and using what you had to cut cost. Read other reports here on boat comparison and boats like the Falcon are just as stiff by using lighter purpose made extrusions and parts. A light weight round tube is much stiffer than the heavy square F18 beam used on the Viper. The Raptor, Bim and the other designs using this are likely as stiff if not more so without the weight penalty.

There are all glass and aluminum rigs out there that are pretty close to the weight. There are glass boats with carbon rigs I know that are at min. Cost wise a quick search shows that there is not any significant difference in cost, in fact depending on the exchange rate that day, some of the lighter boats are even less expensive.

Nacra gets built in the same shop and someone is surprised they have a boat weighing the same heavy amount. I am sure they saw the 104 game in their big local market of France and people obviously willing to still purchase way overweight boats and finally elected to try and enter the F16 game. Remove some controls, slap a little more cheap resin in the thing and try to keep your warranty costs to a minimum. Put some of the top racers on boats at boats at bigger events, so you have podium finishes and then put a spin on how these things need to be there. They need to be there so the builder can make more money on their sales, not because the rule set requires it.

Weight is already a highly over compensated for factor and beaten to death on the beach and in these kind of forums. If you want to buy a Nacra or a Viper then do so. Because they have a marketing story, do not spout it as gospel as it is not entirely true. If having light boat matters to you then buy that way. If no one buys a heavy boat, then you will quickly see these guys start making a min weight model. A class can easily be built even lighter than min. The 16 could as well , given the right design, process and tooling. This is without exotics. Itís business. If the class does not require it with their buying power why should the builders care.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Hans_Ned_111] #237560
09/14/11 08:39 AM
09/14/11 08:39 AM
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Bob_Curry Offline
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Seriously, why not make a boat to the class mins? crazy

It seems if you want to hit a home run in this market and the competition is heavy, why build to their weight? My opinion; a lost opportunity.

Speaking from a singlehanded background, having a "heavy" boat simply is not an option, period. I'm with Hans and Mike, WHY???

Most of the F16s out there are biased towards 2-up sailing anyway. Why (as a singlehander) would you spend the money on a platform designed to carry 2 and you sail as 1? It seems a F16 singlehanded specific boat is needed AT MINIMUM CLASS WEIGHT. Otherwise, just go and buy an A cat as prices seem to be reaching into that arena.

This topic was too easy to comment on!! Again this is just my opinion and may not be shared by the masses who like to sail heavy boats. crazy

BC


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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Bob_Curry] #237561
09/14/11 08:48 AM
09/14/11 08:48 AM
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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Hans_Ned_111] #237564
09/14/11 09:31 AM
09/14/11 09:31 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
"I want to have a boat to class weight"


The careful reader will ask... What is the class... exactly?

The single handed sailor, who wants an A class like boat with a spinnaker.

The double handed team, who wants an alternative to the F18 and the classic sloop boats that is optimized for 300 lb crew weights (The largest group of cat racers are still on Hobie 16's world wide at around 300 lbs)

Mushing these two interests into one class and saying... "make it so" did not impress Cap and Nacra. They said... we are building a boat for the second market.

Is it possible to build a perfect boat for both classes at 16 feet... perhaps... but it will be really pricey. (see A cat prices)



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237565
09/14/11 09:43 AM
09/14/11 09:43 AM
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Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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So, everyone wants to make a comment about weight.

Why don't you ask that with the F18's.

It seems that I remember some of the Infusions at US nationals last year were overweight by about 10lbs!

And if you recall, someone placed in the top 5 with that HEAVY boat!

You guys aren't an equal opportunity weight bashers are you!



Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mini] #237567
09/14/11 09:47 AM
09/14/11 09:47 AM
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Memphis, TN
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Originally Posted by mini
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Weight???

Interesting that they chose 8 feet 2 inches for the beam. .... Back to the Taipan 4.9 dimensions.

Any idea what it will rate on SCHRS? Are they shooting for the 104 niche?

The Viper 8.5 feet beam boats seem to optimize around 300.... Any idea if a narrow version will shift the weight a bit higher?




Y You send your manufacturing to Asia in the same shop as your competition I guess it is no surprise you have a like heavy boat.





Isn't the C2 and Infusion made in the same factory now?

Isn't the C2 made below Min weight in that same factory?

What's the Infusion weight now?

I seem to remember some of them being overweight at US nationals a couple of years ago?

What about now?





Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237568
09/14/11 09:49 AM
09/14/11 09:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline OP
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my opinion is that the F16 class rules are a mess. You just can't race 1 up vs 2 up at the same rating..period. The class should be split into 2. The weight thing well its a function of economics but maybe the class weight should be moved up?

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237569
09/14/11 09:53 AM
09/14/11 09:53 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
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I just have to give thumbs up to Mini and Hans for their reasoned posts.

AHPC and NACRA have choosen a strategy for reasons I dont know. Now we just wait for Hobie to jump on the same bandwagon as the F16 market is becoming the next growth market. Rest assured, for continued economic stability at the manufacturers there will have to be a new class entering the market in a few years.

Now..
Ref: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/09/formula-16-new-nacra-design.html

..and multiple post in this thread..

Just why is every busybody trying to tell the F16 class how it needs to change to <insert reason of choice here or use my list: "Survive", "become olympic", "become a professional class", "to grow", "to go to infinity and beyond or whatever">. Looks to me like the class have managed fine on their own.

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