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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237571
09/14/11 10:21 AM
09/14/11 10:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
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As i was afraid of is the weight thing again. I am not talking about the weight of the boat and choices the builder made to go in there all wisdom.

I was only wondering why nobody of the sailors is saying or demanding to builders, " i want your boat but build to the class edges " , weight is one of the things, it looks like to me that everybody is just running behind eachother like a band wagon.
The F16 class is as it is at the moment with their rules, just like every other class and everybody wants to change everything always like in any other class.

Hans

Hans

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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Hans_Ned_111] #237572
09/14/11 10:25 AM
09/14/11 10:25 AM
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pgp Offline
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As a paid up F16 class member I am opposed to any change in rules concerning weight or 1 up/2 up splits.

Our class is just fine the way it is.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237573
09/14/11 10:25 AM
09/14/11 10:25 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
ust why is every busybody trying to tell the class how it needs to change


Because we all have an interest in the 16 foot class being wildly successful. It should be the entry point for most cat racers who might change to one of the other classes in time and it is perfect for Teens, Women and Hobie 16 sized teams... We were waiting... waiting... waiting!
Now after 10 + years of class mismanagement or non management... a new player will tip the scales a bit further. ... so we are now hoping ... hoping .... hoping.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237574
09/14/11 10:26 AM
09/14/11 10:26 AM
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pgp Offline
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If you want a heavy 16 footer, Hobie has one for you.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237575
09/14/11 10:36 AM
09/14/11 10:36 AM
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Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
ust why is every busybody trying to tell the class how it needs to change


It should be the entry point for most cat racers who might change to one of the other classes in time and it is perfect for Teens, Women and Hobie 16 sized teams... We were waiting... waiting... waiting!
Now after 10 + years of class mismanagement or non management..


How can you have an entry boat that costs almost as much as one of the other boats?

Maybe you could use it as a stepping point to an A-class, but to the F18's?

I think you could go from the Hobie 16 to the F16, but the F16 is NOT a stepping stone to the F18.

I would think some people would take offense to that, especially someone like Matt McDonald.

And if you think it's been mismanaged, why don't you come over and change it.

There's always someone complaining that it should be this or it should be that, but no one wants to step up!

Mark, STEP IT UP! Let's make it better! smile


Mike



Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237576
09/14/11 10:49 AM
09/14/11 10:49 AM
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pgp Offline
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+1

Let's take stock Mike:

* We're ISAF recognized
* We just completed our 2nd National Championship (plus several global challenges)
* That championship was held in a different geographical location, so we are not just a regional group.
* We have confirmed a location and OA for our 3rd national championship and it promises to be the best yet!
* And we have our 3rd class president. Making a seamless transition from one president to another is important. It means you have an actual organization as opposed to a cult.

I would say class management is doing just fine.

But, you're right. There will always be those critical of anything they can't control.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237578
09/14/11 11:09 AM
09/14/11 11:09 AM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by mikeborden
Maybe you could use it as a stepping point to an A-class, but to the F18's?


Sure why not?

Originally Posted by mikeborden

I think you could go from the Hobie 16 to the F16, but the F16 is NOT a stepping stone to the F18.


Again, why not? Teens grow up and often increase in size. Women could find it extremely satisfying to tell a man what to do all afternoon, not something I know firsthand but I've seen things

Originally Posted by mikeborden

I would think some people would take offense to that, especially someone like Matt McDonald.


Is Matt involved in class management?

Originally Posted by mikeborden

And if you think it's been mismanaged, why don't you come over and change it.


Well, that's just Mark being Mark.

Originally Posted by mikeborden

There's always someone complaining that it should be this or it should be that, but no one wants to step up!


Often true but not always the case.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: David Ingram] #237579
09/14/11 11:14 AM
09/14/11 11:14 AM
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Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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I can't wait for Matt to officially announce his F18.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: pgp] #237580
09/14/11 11:22 AM
09/14/11 11:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Me too.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237581
09/14/11 11:25 AM
09/14/11 11:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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Portland, Maine
Hey look another F16 weight thread and macca isn't even here.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: pgp] #237582
09/14/11 11:42 AM
09/14/11 11:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
If you want a heavy 16 footer, Hobie has one for you.

History if full of heavy 16-17 boats that have gone nowhere.

I am not sure what need is satisfied by the internet trolls who feel a constant need to bash the F16 rule set. If you do not like it, there are plenty of other options. The F16 class has had steady and consistent growth. The attraction being predominantly light weight performance and versatility. People buying into the class by far are not the serious race group, but those who see an advantage in what the F16 rule set has to offer over some of the other classes.

The 16 is definitely a performance boat, but with less sheet loads and great response. The boats are capable of being driven nearly equivalent in around the course speed to the larger boat classes like the F18. In what world would this be considered a stepping stone? Its performance is already there, so even in “youth programs, it is really set up as an advanced step for better teams moving to multihulls not beginner multi racing.

We have now a premier 1 up and a 2 up multihull class racing in the A and F18. IMO, there is not really the participation to support more than 1 elite racing class with huge worldwide participation, in either. The 16 is attracting performance junkies and the local and club racing teams who by and large race like I do, with my wife and kids and stay more or less local. Here there is a place and nitch. The elite F18 teams are 2 young guys by and large. Although it’s there, no one at the top races small sail plan. Why is there no large outcry about separating the F18 class to eliminate the sail plan issue if they cannot seem to compete? Because it’s a class decision and not an open forum debate, same as F16 rules. There is a place for racing where mixed teams, youth etc can go, compete and have fun. The uni guys are there and doing what they love. This is the F16. If you want to be serious then go for it. If the weight matters then, same thing.

The debate here is about weight and why anyone would purposely buy or build an extreme over weight boat. I would be happy to discuss 1 on 1 with anyone the design and manufacturing issues associated with boats and how they impact costs, performance etc. 90% of the opinions espoused here do not hold any value. If someone wants to buy a heavy boat then it obviously does not matter to them, or they want to play the handicap ratings game and flop between 16 and 104. If they wish to buy a lighter boat then there are options available for that too.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: ThunderMuffin] #237587
09/14/11 12:37 PM
09/14/11 12:37 PM
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Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Hey look another F16 weight thread and macca isn't even here.


He was also one of the people on a Heavy F18 that did really well at US nationals! smile


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: David Ingram] #237592
09/14/11 01:38 PM
09/14/11 01:38 PM
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Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by mikeborden
Maybe you could use it as a stepping point to an A-class, but to the F18's?


Sure why not?

Originally Posted by mikeborden

I think you could go from the Hobie 16 to the F16, but the F16 is NOT a stepping stone to the F18.


Again, why not? Teens grow up and often increase in size. Women could find it extremely satisfying to tell a man what to do all afternoon, not something I know firsthand but I've seen things

Originally Posted by mikeborden

I would think some people would take offense to that, especially someone like Matt McDonald.


Is Matt involved in class management?

Originally Posted by mikeborden

And if you think it's been mismanaged, why don't you come over and change it.


Well, that's just Mark being Mark.

Originally Posted by mikeborden

There's always someone complaining that it should be this or it should be that, but no one wants to step up!


Often true but not always the case.



I know your just busting my balls! smile

Yes, teens do step up in size, but the interpretation I got from the previous post is that the F16 class is only a stepping stone and nothing else. The F16 class CAN be, but it doesn't have to be JUST a steppping stone, it's bigger than that.

Matt is an F16 member, so he can put forward ideas and make decisions of how the class should go. That makes him part of the class management as is anyone else who is a paid and a voting member. smile

Some of these other yahoos aren't, and they seem to know everything and how things should be run.

smile

Mike


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Matt M] #237593
09/14/11 01:48 PM
09/14/11 01:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Quote
I am not sure what need is satisfied by the internet trolls who feel a constant need to bash the F16 rule set. If you do not like it, there are plenty of other options.


Hey... this thread started when NACRA built a boat that does not come close to the min specs of the rules and joined the Viper. Nacra built a boat that measures in. Time will tell if it out-performs the other designs in 2 up mode. (I hope it does just as well and not a bit more) People then asked WHY?

IMO, pretending that one up and two up configurations are really the same class is a fundamental problem of the rule set.

Conflating the marketing of F16's... hey you can use this one platform in either configuration... with... This is a FORMULA CLASS that promises a level playing field is a real problem.

In my book... when you spend 20k and take a weekend of time to go racing... you are serious... so... I disagree with your basic premise... there are also Serious RACERS on Hobie 16, 17, 18's plus A class and F18's and a few other regional classes. But they have rules that have integrity and are proven to work. Why do you want half butt rules for F16's? I suspect that one up sailors don't want to be running their own class because the critical mass for a single handed spin class may not be there... but that problem is solvable!

The min boat weight issue is really a builder issue in my book. In two up mode... I don't really care... I just don't want my choice to be slower. The race course will sort out the design choices within the formula box. As you correctly note... you now have three real option[/quote]s and your mileage will vary.

But until the class fixes the obvious flim flam (one up equals two up).... I would not use the word "integrity" and F16 rules in the same sentence.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 09/14/11 01:50 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237594
09/14/11 01:50 PM
09/14/11 01:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Congratulations to Nacra! I am eager to see what their design and marketing team brings to the class.

Relative to the rest of the nonsense in this thread, bringing performance beach cats to the masses in an affordable manner is a series of compromises and what the market will bare. Looks like Nacra is taking a page out of AHPC's plan for qualifying as a 104 class also. Frankly, the F16 rig is very powerful and weight is proving not to be a significant handicap with the newer hull designs, especially amoung the club racing crowd.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237595
09/14/11 02:00 PM
09/14/11 02:00 PM
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Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
I am not sure what need is satisfied by the internet trolls who feel a constant need to bash the F16 rule set. If you do not like it, there are plenty of other options.


But until the class fixes the obvious flim flam (one up equals two up).... I would not use the word "integrity" and F16 rules in the same sentence.


I'll admit at times, the two-up is not equal to one-up, but don't say there isn't any integrity in the class because of it.

If it weren't for the one-up with spin, I probably wouldn't be sailing anymore.

Isn't there enough bitching about not enough numbers as it is?

So, you want to have less sailors because of "integrity".


WTF, you want to have you cake and eat it too apparently!



Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237596
09/14/11 02:10 PM
09/14/11 02:10 PM
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pgp Offline
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"Flim flam?"

You're now on ignore.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: pgp] #237599
09/14/11 03:33 PM
09/14/11 03:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by pgp
"Flim flam?"

You're now on ignore.


"Flim flam?"
You mean like ? "Ah say, Ah say... I don't see no hula hula girls.We've been flim-flammed."


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #237601
09/14/11 05:54 PM
09/14/11 05:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by pgp
"Flim flam?"

You're now on ignore.


"Flim flam?"
You mean like ? "Ah say, Ah say... I don't see no hula hula girls.We've been flim-flammed."



Phuck! Hahahahahaha. I bout pee'd me pants.


Kris hit it on the head. It's built as a 104 boat, it just happens to fit the F16 box as well. I think NACRA was wise to build it heavier as there are way more frenchies sailing 104 than using the F16 numbers.

Now, I wish they'd offer it in a prepreg autoclaved carbon nomex core as well. The truth of the matter is that there's probably only about two people in this country that would cut a $30k+ check this second for an extremely stiff, extremely well built/durable, minimum weight F16. These things are built to


I'm boatless.
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Karl_Brogger] #237603
09/14/11 06:33 PM
09/14/11 06:33 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



FYI: You can put yourself AND your old lady on a Wave and nobody gives a flying fartlick. 1 up, two up...hell, you can even go three up. Of course, the F16 thingy is probably WAAAAAY faster.....and most likely weighs 1/5 as much and maybe y'all don't WANT the old lady on the boat with you, but I am just typing to hear myself type at this point.
Have a great one! Hi Karlos!
cw

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