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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237605
09/14/11 06:19 PM
09/14/11 06:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Quote
I'll admit at times, the two-up is not equal to one-up, but don't say there isn't any integrity in the class because of it.


OK.... so what don't you understand about a Formula RULE that the rest of the world understands to mean.. this rule is tested and assures that the racing is fair and level. (The F18 class was worried that the class would not be viewed as level and so they prohibited listing boat types at major events... they were all F18's.) You guys just say... trust us... single and double are equal on the course... cough cough. Trust us... the weight differences are not meaningful. (which may be true... but after the first whopper.... WTF)

So... I call it a flim flam when you market the class as a Formula 16 class which creates a fair, level playing field when you really don't believe this to be the case.

This is a very simple... it is just truth in advertising.
Create two distinct classes... when you choose to race even up in the same start... call it level racing.

If the sailors want a more level playing field... they choose to race handicap.

The results on the race course will determine if the formula rule works well.... if the racing is fair.... declare victory.
If some one shows up with a light weight world beater... You will have a tough problem ... change the rule to match the majority of boats... Otherwise, the heavy weights will just go form their own class.... (and not allow the light boats to race)


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237610
09/14/11 07:32 PM
09/14/11 07:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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South Florida & the Keys
Where does durability and cost of ownership enter into the equation when evaluating building materials? How do the lighter boats handle rougher wind and water states? Is there a very distinct advantage seen in the weight variance?


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: arbo06] #237611
09/14/11 08:12 PM
09/14/11 08:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Weight is most important on the beach and every ounce counts when you're handling the boat alone


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237612
09/14/11 08:32 PM
09/14/11 08:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by mikeborden

If it weren't for the one-up with spin, I probably wouldn't be sailing anymore.


There is NOTHING that compares to this. If it didn't exist, I'd be still sailing, but not having as much fun. Yes I could do it on other boats but I wouldn't be able to move them around on shore solo.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Kris Hathaway] #237629
09/15/11 01:32 AM
09/15/11 01:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
enthusiast
Hans_Ned_111  Offline
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Posts: 221
Netherlands
Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
Congratulations to Nacra! I am eager to see what their design and marketing team brings to the class.

......Frankly, the F16 rig is very powerful and weight is proving not to be a significant handicap with the newer hull designs, especially amoung the club racing crowd.


The last frame is really an interesting phrase, that's something where the rating commitees should look at.

The 1 up to 2 up in the same fleet seems to be not equal when you look at the event results but the comparison is also not apples with apples. If you put one of the world best beach cat sailor on a 2 up boat they are hardly to beat ( what ever model or type he sails), they can even win on a wooden pallet with flag on it. It would be more interesting to see if you put a top gun on a 1 up and then starts joining the fleet, this would give a much better idea on things and a foundation for the next conversation . You need to have the same level of sailors on the 2 configurations and see what is happening , what also takes into account is the wind strength a 2 up will always be quicker in high winds because of boat handling but in the mid range winds i would like to see how this will be between the two set up,s. This has never happend before.

But also it needs to say that the F16 class must be happy with a new F16 design because it is good for the class and what i personally think is that ( as mentioned in previous comments) the F16 sailors does need to understand that the members are determing what to do with the class, they are the only one who can give direction to it, not the builders, not the Council and i think that a lot of paid up members are not really realizing this.

Hans

Last edited by Hans_Ned_111; 09/15/11 01:35 AM. Reason: add a line
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237631
09/15/11 02:07 AM
09/15/11 02:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
Marc,

We at the F16 class simply made the choice to race 2-ups and 1-up in the same fleet and have actively tried to make the two variants as equal as we could get. How this fleet is scored afterwards is a decision left to the organisers of the event.

It is not mandatory to score the fleet as one fleet, every organisor may break out the results separately. For some reason no-one did up till now. I guess mostly because the participamts feel it is more fun to have a single listing and that is what everything is all about in the end. Having fun as sailors. And being guaranteed to be a full participant and not being an afterthought with a separate mini-course.

Other then that i personaly really do feel that for local ( fun or club) races the two setups are sufficiently close in performance. For global events I will personal opt for a separate listing in addition to the combined one and probably focus on the first ans use the latter to see where I'm roughly at overall.

That is when I do get the chance to be at one of those international events !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Wouter] #237632
09/15/11 02:12 AM
09/15/11 02:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
Personally I think this is exiting news.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Wouter] #237633
09/15/11 02:30 AM
09/15/11 02:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
enthusiast
Hans_Ned_111  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Originally Posted by Wouter
........ For global events I will personal opt for a separate listing in addition to the combined one and probably focus on the first ans use the latter to see where I'm roughly at overall.......


This has been done at the latest 2 event ( Eurochallenge and last Worlds ) . There was an overall listing and on the price giving they had several prices for best ladies team, best junior team, best mixed team and best single hander.

Hans

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237634
09/15/11 06:57 AM
09/15/11 06:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
Originally Posted by mikeborden
Originally Posted by Undecided
Hey look another F16 weight thread and macca isn't even here.


He was also one of the people on a Heavy F18 that did really well at US nationals! smile



Iím here, was just out sailing my overweight F18..

For sure the boat we borrowed for the nationals there was overweight, and as I have said numerous times its not something I like to have under me at a big regatta. But sometimes you donít get a choice with a borrowed boat.

The fact that we did well in the event is more to do with the fact that we sailed very well in the conditions we had. For sure we were not the fastest boat on the course which only makes it harder to do well. How much the weight impacted on our speed is unknown, but for sure it doesn't make you faster!

Now, onto the current topic: I built the business case for the Nacra F16 and made it very clear in that document that there was a considerable advantage in building the boat to the class weight or very close to it. This was based on the fact that the current benchmark boat (Viper) has left the door wide open for a better solution to the F16 rule to enter and dominate the class.
Based on the component weights from current partslist it was possible to get the boat down to weight, as Hans says it is totally feasible to build down to this weight, it just takes more time and energy (increased production cost) to do it compared to the current boats offered by Nacra.

My business case even factored in the increased retail price compared to the Viper if Nacra built the lightweight boat, the increase was less than 2k USD and that was maintaining the existing considerable margins, this would deliver a boat built to the rule (min weight, carbon mast etc) and of a very high standard. Would the market pay that much more for such a boat?

Upon seeing the result from the press release and knowing the weights targeted for the boat I can say that this is a big opportunity missed. Sure the boat will be nice and if its not faster than the Viper I will be surprised. But to not make it as good as it can be is simply disappointing and it still leaves the door wide open for the right boat to dominate. Unless the Viper sailors and Nacra sailors make up the majority within the F16 class and decide its better for them to vote in a weight change for the class, then you have the exact situation Hans is talking about backfiring...


________________________
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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237635
09/15/11 07:02 AM
09/15/11 07:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
M
mikeborden Offline
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mikeborden  Offline
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M

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
I'll admit at times, the two-up is not equal to one-up, but don't say there isn't any integrity in the class because of it.


OK.... so what don't you understand about a Formula RULE that the rest of the world understands to mean.. this rule is tested and assures that the racing is fair and level. (The F18 class was worried that the class would not be viewed as level and so they prohibited listing boat types at major events... they were all F18's.)

This is a very simple... it is just truth in advertising.
Create two distinct classes... when you choose to race even up in the same start... call it level racing.



What about crew weight? Let's talk about that. According to some, if you are 10lbs over the minimum, there is an unfair advantage to the lighties, even in the heavy wind. So, why don't we handicap that? People in the F18 class think if you are 10lbs on either side of the optimum crew weight, then you are handicapped.

Why isn't there a handicap for that?

Even the A-class, lighter is better, so if the crew is 180, let's give them a handicap too, in the same class.

Nope, don't want to do that, cause we want to race on elapsed time, non of this handicap stuff.


If you are going to be anal about stuff, let's just go all the way!!!!


Mike


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237636
09/15/11 07:19 AM
09/15/11 07:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
SoggyCheetoh Offline
member
SoggyCheetoh  Offline
member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
Ummm, do you realize you used the word "anal" and "let's go all the way" in the same sentence?


Alec D.
Pirates of the Chesapeake www.teampiratesofthechesapeake.com
Nacra20 1057 - Crew
F16 Viper 152 - Uni
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: SoggyCheetoh] #237637
09/15/11 07:22 AM
09/15/11 07:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
M
mikeborden Offline
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mikeborden  Offline
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Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
Originally Posted by SoggyCheetoh
Ummm, do you realize you used the word "anal" and "let's go all the way" in the same sentence?


LOL! smile

Not until you told me about it!


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: PTP] #237638
09/15/11 07:45 AM
09/15/11 07:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
addict

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by mikeborden

If it weren't for the one-up with spin, I probably wouldn't be sailing anymore.


There is NOTHING that compares to this. If it didn't exist, I'd be still sailing, but not having as much fun. Yes I could do it on other boats but I wouldn't be able to move them around on shore solo.


Absolutely, it is a Zen like experience!!!!


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: macca] #237639
09/15/11 08:21 AM
09/15/11 08:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Posts: 5,525
Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by mikeborden
Originally Posted by Undecided
Hey look another F16 weight thread and macca isn't even here.


He was also one of the people on a Heavy F18 that did really well at US nationals! smile



Iím here, was just out sailing my overweight F18..

For sure the boat we borrowed for the nationals there was overweight, and as I have said numerous times its not something I like to have under me at a big regatta. But sometimes you donít get a choice with a borrowed boat.

The fact that we did well in the event is more to do with the fact that we sailed very well in the conditions we had. For sure we were not the fastest boat on the course which only makes it harder to do well. How much the weight impacted on our speed is unknown, but for sure it doesn't make you faster!

Now, onto the current topic: I built the business case for the Nacra F16 and made it very clear in that document that there was a considerable advantage in building the boat to the class weight or very close to it. This was based on the fact that the current benchmark boat (Viper) has left the door wide open for a better solution to the F16 rule to enter and dominate the class.
Based on the component weights from current partslist it was possible to get the boat down to weight, as Hans says it is totally feasible to build down to this weight, it just takes more time and energy (increased production cost) to do it compared to the current boats offered by Nacra.

My business case even factored in the increased retail price compared to the Viper if Nacra built the lightweight boat, the increase was less than 2k USD and that was maintaining the existing considerable margins, this would deliver a boat built to the rule (min weight, carbon mast etc) and of a very high standard. Would the market pay that much more for such a boat?

Upon seeing the result from the press release and knowing the weights targeted for the boat I can say that this is a big opportunity missed. Sure the boat will be nice and if its not faster than the Viper I will be surprised. But to not make it as good as it can be is simply disappointing and it still leaves the door wide open for the right boat to dominate. Unless the Viper sailors and Nacra sailors make up the majority within the F16 class and decide its better for them to vote in a weight change for the class, then you have the exact situation Hans is talking about backfiring...


There is a storm building out on the horizon...

Last edited by pgp; 09/15/11 08:21 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: pgp] #237640
09/15/11 09:29 AM
09/15/11 09:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
old hand
SurfCityRacing  Offline
old hand

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
Originally Posted by pgp
If you want a heavy 16 footer, Hobie has one for you.


Oh, you mean the second largest one-design sailboat, and most successful catamaran class in the world? grin

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: SurfCityRacing] #237641
09/15/11 09:37 AM
09/15/11 09:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
The one that I have many, many fond memories of? The one that is still, imo, the best looking cat on the market?

That would be it.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237646
09/15/11 10:57 AM
09/15/11 10:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
What about crew weight? Let's talk about that.

This is a complete red herring... but If you must....

The F18 class DOES talk about crew weight and has two sail configurations. Wouter and the founders considered and rejected crew weight solutions for F16. They made an explicit decision that open sail shape would be enough of a level playing field. Most sailors have decided that custom sail shape is the game they write rules for and put into the class rules to define the game to play. (your move if you want something else)

THIS IS THE POINT.... The class rules define the game.. We understand Formula xxx class to mean the boats measure in and compete on a level playing field with boats that are equal in performance. The F18's have that kind of racing with boats from several builders.... It took a few years for the world to believe and accept that premise. The F16's one up and two up make this same claim. So... Do the F16 rules pass this level playing field test?

Hans wants a practiced single handed sailor to race a two up team of the same skill. My point would be... Why bother... To race around buoys... the one up sailor is playing a very different game with two less hands on the boat. So, do you think it's fair to the two up teams racing each other to go into a tight gate rounding with a single hander who has to put the stick down to snuff the chute? If he has rights and is just slow and interferes with the second of the two up boat.... Is this the right game to play?... In handicap and level racing... this situation is absolutely part of the game. In Formula racing.. it's a problem! Just because the equipment looks the same does not make it the same game!... Hans mentions the windspeed differences and how they effect the sailor and boat as yet another critical difference. Having a class rule that pretends that apples are oranges despite the obvious differences is a problem.

Finally this is Wouters point... Hey.... the sailors who race F6's choose to ignore the problem and want to race even up... They don't want to be split off.
Quote
And being guaranteed to be a full participant and not being an afterthought with a separate mini-course.
. The sailors want to look at the results any way they wish. Don't bother us with the technical details of our flim flam in the class rules.. I get it... I personally keep score of all A class sailors over 200 lbs.... my personal fat boy score! But I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO PUT IT IN THE CLASS RULES!

Quote
It is not mandatory to score the fleet as one fleet, every organisor may break out the results separately.


Nope!..... the OA follows the class rules for a NOR that declares this a class race... they could in theory be protested if they split this out... The class rules state that one ups are racing two ups. It's the fundamental nature of the competition. (This stops all of the BS... Hey... don't cover me... I am not racing you....I am single handed)

Do you REALLY WANT A WORLD where the OA can decide what the racing is for your class? OA's dont want to bother with yours or any class's internal rules.... They just want to follow your class rules and run the race. The OA's protest committee wants to resolve any disputes with a copy of class rules in front of them.

The simple solution is one class for two ups (F16)... one class for 1 ups (F16 1 ups). When you want to schedule a race with heads up racing... create a new class that combines the two ... Level 16's! and have the OA run that race according to those new class rules.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237648
09/15/11 11:46 AM
09/15/11 11:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
think of how much better you'd be and how much more fun you'd have had if you were out sailing instead of discussing all this minuta about weights?

Macca even said himself that they did well with a heavy boat, just had to work a little harder.

And you wonder why people don't race much anymore.... I want to sail better than I did LAST time. If that puts me at the front of the fleet, all the better.

Oh, and I want to lee-bow Ding once or twice. His use of colorful metaphors is priceless


Jay

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237649
09/15/11 11:47 AM
09/15/11 11:47 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
How about becoming a paying class member with voting rights Mark. Shouting and being obnoxious here is just expelling hot air.

Your derogatory characterization of the class is an insult. If you were able to debate objectively I might even try to take you seriously. As it is you are just another busybody producing negative statements on a catamaran class. Thanks a lot buddy.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237650
09/15/11 11:51 AM
09/15/11 11:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
producing negative statements on a catamaran class.


Not directing this at Mark specifically, but you make a very good point here.

Casual sailors/racers read this and decide it's not worth sailing...


Jay

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