"So, an 180 person is able to break down the boat..."

It is also possible to screw up a vacant lot.

the good thing about downsizing parts like that is that inherent strength usually goes up

but yes, it may still cost a packet and work out a little more expensive per foot than an f18 but if it keeps sailing for over 30 years like many of the nacra5.2s it will have been worth it

in 1977 the nacra5.2 cost $2,950

35 years later the same boat costs about $1000

that's $70 a year

imho a slightly heavier boat from an established builder is the best buy for most sailors

A slightly heavier boat (I'll not go into the definition of slightly in this context) from an experienced builder, where a proper test-program have been applied sounds like a good idea. If no testing have been done on the structure.. The risk of standing up to your elbows in sanding dust and epoxy is very real.

Wow that's depressing. If you don't want it anymore I'll take it off your hands for a yard sale price...at the same time I would hope you've talked to Matt and he's working with you to at least fix the major structural problems. I've blown up rudder heads on N20 rudders which are built like bricks, part of that is technique and part of that is luck, aka, what **** did you hit today while doing 20+ kts?

The new Nacra F16 looks good, sure you can build a lighter boat but you can probably also loose 10 lbs per person, pick a better direction to sail, have a better spin set, don't screw up the start/tacks/gybes etc....once you are a pro, olympic class sailor then you can bitch about boat weight.

I for one will take a heavier boat that is built right, frankly my biggest concern is that the initial production run of boats will have major structural problems (improperly seated dagger board case, poorly joined hull halves, weak dagger boards etc.) just like the Infusion (and to a much lesser extent the F20c).

As far as I know Matt is no longer employed by Vectorworks.

All the complaining about a few pounds. Yet the manufacture has has to warranty the boat for a set amount of time.

Hans if your a builder and you see a way to gain a hold on the F-16 market based on weight alone then you should tool up and go for it.

And the rest complaining about weight would be the ones burning down your house when their eggshells started cracking.

Whoa up, for years Macca stirred the pot over on the F16 forum and wound everyone up pretty well about the weight issue arguing forever and a day how the F16 class had it wrong and all boats need to be over weight, now having " retired" from Nacra he seems suddenly to be a convertee in that all boats need to be minimum weight, its amazing how the dollar in ones wage slip seems to cloud ones mind, mmmmm. If you suck up to the dollar then I guess it will eventually bite you in the a***

I guess the builders already making boats to weight will have the same warranty as Nacra who have also made a few suspect boats along the way, you only have to read some of the F18 forums to realise that.

The weight issue is no different than the Viper, its simply more economical in production cost terms,to use existing F18 parts.If enough are built maybe the rules will be changed to suit simply by the voting rights of owners, but under the class constitution they will have to wait for the 5 year review before they can apply.

The Viper doesn't seem to have suffered along the way and ended up with about the right handicap ( it wins some open events but not all ). If someone was such a weight weenie then it wouldn't be much of a problem to retro fit carbon beams, carbon mast and a set of A class rudders to bring the Nacra boats down to class weight. Would it make a better boat, only marginally I would think.

"Hans if your a builder and you see a way to gain a hold on the F-16 market based on weight alone then you should tool up and go for it. "

Actually Hans did do exactly that. It's called the aquaraptor F16 and he launched it last year.

Like looks a fine boat. Hans does have very skilled hands.

Wayne, Its not that i have changed my mind, I have always made it clear that the class is leaving itself open to issues arising from the weight issue. Now, exactly what I told you all will happen is now for sure going to happen. The majority of the class will be made up of owners (that can vote) that have boats in the 128kg weight range. Then if someone builds something those owners dont like.... its an easy voting process to secure their investment in a heavy product.

How long do you think that will take??

Nacra missed the chance to deliver a boat that made the viper redundant at the top level, and that I believe is an opportunity missed from a commercial point of view. Every manufacturer wants more market share and the competitive advantage of entering into a class with room to improve on the current offerings is a rare situation and not one that should be missed.

Minimum 5 years depending on the when they put in their application. The governing council wisely put in a clause on the change of rules which prevents just this sort of thing.

I'm not sure whether you have changed your mind, more perhaps looking from the other side of the fence, but hey we all got there in the end and I really hope other manufacturers such as Hobie and Cirrus now chip in with their own designs. Before long we will have the F20's for the big boys, F18's for the heavier teams, the F16's for the mixed and light weights and a couple of nice little 12 and 14 footers for the juniors, the A's for the purists, and with the AC45's generating the publicity it looks pretty bright for multihulls in general.

That's awesome then. Hope he's right.

Macca
I agree with your first point.

I differ on this second point. The other interpretation is that Nacra believes that this class is targeted to club racers and boats on the line will trump a tiny bit more of performance in selling boats and growing a fleet. So... by joining the game at the Viper level... they protect their investment and can sell new owners on the prospects of fun racing at the club level against a fleet of similar boats.

The US experience in choosing between the light F18HT design and the Heavy F18 design supports the argument that light does not trump the potential for mass appeal. (known builders and EU acceptance)

Also, cornering the market is not all it's cracked up to be! ... the old F20 class cratered when Ventilo built the fastest light design and every body else just bailed on the class. Marstrom cornered the market in the Tornado class but succeeded because the boat was Olympic. Cornering the market only works when the elite sailors are looking for an edge and the olympic class drove this forward.

No one has ever said... the F18 rule has created the best 18 footer ever built.... It is the popular and successful 18 footer. So.... being popular trumps being the best. (And no one has cornered the market in F18's.)

Final point... Nacra does not give a damn about the Single hand Spin market that really wants a light boat..... They tried and failed to get lift off with F17. Hobie tried and failed with the FX1. I believe they now recognize that Single handed RACING is different and the A class has filled that niche a bit better. If light weight single handed spin boat racing were going to take off world wide because the sailors of the world were dying for just the right boat... ... then the Marstrom M18 or the several light F16 designs would have taken off over the last ten years.

I predict a successful two up F16 class with Vipers, Nacra's and eventually Hobie. I predict a much much smaller one up class at the lighter weight. (Assuming the class evolves to keep the name) For club racing.... Handicap or level racing will always dominate... and in the EU... where they would much rather race in big fleets... events like Carnac will put all of the 16 and 17 footers on the water in a handicap spin class.

I got TWO - Hiram's and Wildcat. You gonna be there to witness the "revenge of the Stank-a-tude"?

Didn't see yet the new Cirrus. I had some older Bimare and the Eagle F18HT in mind. Guess you need the reverse in the stern to get the right outflow angle.
I think that the pronounced rocker means that volume was taken from the front and rear and shifted to the center. There are obviously two schools of thinking: One says put volume in the bow to avoid diving and another who takes volume out from the bow (and stern to rebalance). Don't know which one is better or if there is one better (assuming both sailed correctly).

Cheers,

Klaus

Mark, you're spot on with your assessment of the F18 class IMO.

holy cr*p. The end must be near.

Ding is agreeing with Mark on an F18 subject...

How do you know? Do you have an in with Nacra? F17 = 156kg & FX-One = 148kg. Maybe that had something to do with the low interest by the single hand sailors? Also, there is a lot to be said about a formula class where boats are from several manufacturers and none of the problems you get with a single manufacturer one-design. F16 is a great example where the formula class principles work; for example the newer hull design. Frankly, I believe all of the builders love the idea that they can sell the same boat to more sailors, both uni and 2-ups. The only ones with major gas pains about the class seem to be inactive or non-members in the class. Nacra and AHPC are also leveraging their market even further by producing a boat that is 104 compliant. Good for them. AHPC has made the strategy work. Nacra can do the same. As said before, weight is not proving to make a huge difference with the sail plan and newer hull designs....So much so, that SCHRS is rethinking its model relative to weight.

The FX1 is not a good boat to sail singlehanded, very unforgiving on the water, difficult to right single handed and heavy to push around off, the Nacra F17 came in so many guises that no one was quite sure which model it was and all that the FX1 was above. We see it our club where a new owner of an FX1 arrives, sails for a couple of months and then the boat sits in the boat park with the other 5 parked FX1's. Shame as its a beautifully engineered and built boat.

Times and hull designs have moved a long ways since those two designs and I would suspect that some company somewhere will design a single handed with occassional two handed boat rather than vice a versa as at present. Datchet was a good example where the majority F16's sailed single handed, alas due to handicap and other issues that is not the case anymore, but certainly in the UK the consensus of thought was the F16 is a solo boat rather than dual.

I'm surprised that one of the A Class manufacturers haven't gotten involved as a single handed F16 is really only a short version of an A Class with a spinny on. The F16 market would seem a natural extension of their potential market.

Did you get a bit of a chill reading that like I did Mike?

Other then that , this shouldn't be another weight thread. Can't we just be merry about this announcement from Nacra ?

I mean , lets give them some attention instead of beating dead horses. We' ve got tp respect the effort of launching a new catamran type and not spoil their lime light.

That would be bad taste.