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Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: ] #238226
09/23/11 07:45 AM
09/23/11 07:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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I second your note on carbon masts. Surely there is some dielectric material they could add to the outer coatings to achieve some modicum of resistance to conductivity?


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238227
09/23/11 07:53 AM
09/23/11 07:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
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orphan Offline
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Daytona Beach Florida
The specs are isolation not insulation. There are several ways to acheive this.

Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: orphan] #238228
09/23/11 07:59 AM
09/23/11 07:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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and there you have it! smile carbon wings it is....

Doesn't that Dragoon thing have more floatation than the H-16?


Jay

Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238229
09/23/11 08:25 AM
09/23/11 08:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I second your note on carbon masts. Surely there is some dielectric material they could add to the outer coatings to achieve some modicum of resistance to conductivity?


a layer or two of some light fiberglass would do it.


Jake Kohl
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: scooby_simon] #238230
09/23/11 08:44 AM
09/23/11 08:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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Here's a question...

Why are they asking for that?

How many boats in Southern Europe already have that requirement?



Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: mikeborden] #238232
09/23/11 08:55 AM
09/23/11 08:55 AM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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Anyone will be able to submit their boat even if it doesn't meet the spec. ISAF will then do a paper evaluation and invite selected boats to the trial. It doesn't mean that even these shortlisted boats have to adhere to all the requirements in the spec, however, I'm sure there are a few show stoppers and some "nice to haves".

For example, it says Sloop Rig, but if someone can come up with a good arguement why a cat rigged boat with a spinnaker would work, then I'm sure it would be in the mix.

And I can't speak for Hobie Cat, but I would be surprised if they even put forward the Hobie 16.

Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: Paul Pascoe] #238234
09/23/11 09:28 AM
09/23/11 09:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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If I sit on the ISAF committe... I know that all of my money comes from the Olympics... I know that the IOC wants the best and truly world wide competition. I know I have a unique / weird event... no other sailing competition is mandatory mixed.... so... automatically, I have the best in the world.. but nobody competes right now... and no equipment is favored.

So, what I really want to know ... what the vision is of this event within the Sailing games within the big picture. If I am a builder... I ALSO want to know what the vision is... Do you want a high tech marvel... baby tornado... or something more accessible.

You note that anyone can submit their boat on paper ... and then wait for the invite.. However, the spec's have these quirks... non conducting two part masts... which are NOT present in the world today and the market has clearly not asked for... so Why such an oddly constrained request?

I would go low end... accessible.. If not the hobie 16... something low tech and affordable.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: brucat] #238235
09/23/11 09:52 AM
09/23/11 09:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mike... I disagree with you on this last point... After they dumped the Tornado and Before the AC changes.. The elite, best in the world, Multi sailors were Bundy, Asby, Booth Ogletree, and the other top 10 Olympic sailors. This was it... Most importantly... there was no place to go... These guys did not get rides on the big monohulls... Their careers were racing the elite small cats. (The ocean racing game is very different).

So.. the Olympics were the ultimate and final level for multi sailors. Now with the AC cup action... All the sailors I mention have moved up... and the elite mulithull game has exploded as other pro's come into the game... Spithill... Hutchinson... etc.

Mixed Multihull Olympic competition will never be the ultimate level. (Expecially since no other competition is mixed) AND the myth that there was something unique about sailing a multi at the top level has been exploded... (Hutch... spithill...etc).

Olympic multihull sailing will not be the pinnacle of our sport... It will be a quirky competition every 4 years and I will applaud the sailors who compete and win.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: ] #238243
09/23/11 11:14 AM
09/23/11 11:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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In france a few vipers (F16) are already sailing with a carbon mast.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: Wouter] #238265
09/23/11 03:08 PM
09/23/11 03:08 PM
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brucat Offline
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Mark, you seem to have forgotten the other major (paying) multihull events, such as Extreme 40s; and I would not discount those giant trimarans that race across the oceans, around the world, etc. Those events give the Olympic sailors something to do post-Olympics.

Most of the sailors on those boats were in the Olympics first. I don't see a change, the AC (on cats) is just one more high-octane, paying event that is taking former Olympic sailors.

Mike

Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: brucat] #238266
09/23/11 03:11 PM
09/23/11 03:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 66
ccat Offline
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From SA

We are shocked. We cannot believe it. The ISAF presented the rules for the Mixed-Multihull evaluation trials yesterday, and incredibly, they have excluded the Tornado Class from competing in the trial! The Tornado class is the forerunner in Mixed Multihull Sailing, is an amazing performer, and has a great Olympic History. None of this matters to the ISAF Technical Committees. Their rules for the trials:

20-Foot Container
ISAF restricted the length of the new multihull to be a max of 5.898m (the inner length of an 20 Foot container), but no one will travel with a 20-foot container. Anyone who ships boats around knows that a 20’ box is too small to be economically (or environmentally) friendly for long distance travel when shipping anything bigger than Lasers, and that 20-footers are frequently more expensive to move than 40 footers. If you want eco-friendly, economically efficient transport, the Tornado has been doing it for literally decades (10 Tornados plus coach boat plus all equipment in one container) with 40 footers. Why the unreasonable restriction?

2-Piece Mast Required
A two-piece mast is heavier than a one-piece mast. It’s more complicated and far more expensive to construct. It’s less reliable and more subject to breaking. It’s harder to make it watertight. Over time, the juncture can loosen up and change bend characteristics; you can even change mast bending just by playing with the joint. Two piece masts do only one thing well: Fit in 20-foot containers that won’t be used anyway.


120-140kg Crew Weights
Wow – another class like the 470, windsurfers, and 49ers goes the featherweight route! For 2016, an average man of 80 kg has no chance any more. With the Star and Eliot out for 2016 and the multihull going the waif route, only the thinnest and wiriest of athletes will be able to sail for a gold unless your name is Ainslie.

Many mixed-multihull teams, including some extremely successful ones, weigh well above 140 kg. And the new average weight of a mixed team should be 130kgs? This could disqualify 50% of all mixed sailing teams even with dieting.

What weight statistics ISAF used? If you watch real Olympic Athletes and normal average weight statistics, we end up above 140kgs. The 120-140kg team weights with an average of 130kg forces bulimia for Olympic Athletes. Check this.

National Sailing Federations - MNAs
They lost the Starboat. They lost the Elliots. Now they lose the Tornados, which are ready to sail on all continents today. Let’s ask the MNAs what they think about this. Every 4 years the MNAs have to buy new Olympic sailing equipment? Who should finance this?

Media
ISAF want have a small boat. The media will have less interest in it. Sailors get fewer sponsors because the boats are less impactful. This means: Downsize Olympic Multihull Sailing…so the media won’t pay attention…

ISAF Committees
If you looked carefully inside the technical committees of the ISAF, you see sailors with great commercial interest who create the rules the way it fits perfectly to their boats/products they sell. The Tornado Class is a real non-profit organization, but what about the commercial interests of some sailors on the inside? Is it possible that a few bad apples, with a say in the rules, weren’t happy enough to have kicked the Tornado out of the Olympics four years ago so they kicked it out again – but this time, even before reaching the starting line of the ISAF trials? It might just be.

ISAF must act now!
There is only one way to come out of this dilemma. Change the rules and allow the original “Tornado” to sail the ISAF evaluation trials! E-mail me if you think you can help!

Best regards,

Roland Gaebler, Tornado Class President


Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: ccat] #238279
09/24/11 03:17 AM
09/24/11 03:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by ccat
From SA

We are shocked. We cannot believe it. The ISAF presented the rules for the Mixed-Multihull evaluation trials yesterday, and incredibly, they have excluded the Tornado Class from competing in the trial! The Tornado class is the forerunner in Mixed Multihull Sailing, is an amazing performer, and has a great Olympic History. None of this matters to the ISAF Technical Committees. Their rules for the trials:

20-Foot Container
ISAF restricted the length of the new multihull to be a max of 5.898m (the inner length of an 20 Foot container), but no one will travel with a 20-foot container. Anyone who ships boats around knows that a 20’ box is too small to be economically (or environmentally) friendly for long distance travel when shipping anything bigger than Lasers, and that 20-footers are frequently more expensive to move than 40 footers. If you want eco-friendly, economically efficient transport, the Tornado has been doing it for literally decades (10 Tornados plus coach boat plus all equipment in one container) with 40 footers. Why the unreasonable restriction?

2-Piece Mast Required
A two-piece mast is heavier than a one-piece mast. It’s more complicated and far more expensive to construct. It’s less reliable and more subject to breaking. It’s harder to make it watertight. Over time, the juncture can loosen up and change bend characteristics; you can even change mast bending just by playing with the joint. Two piece masts do only one thing well: Fit in 20-foot containers that won’t be used anyway.


120-140kg Crew Weights
Wow – another class like the 470, windsurfers, and 49ers goes the featherweight route! For 2016, an average man of 80 kg has no chance any more. With the Star and Eliot out for 2016 and the multihull going the waif route, only the thinnest and wiriest of athletes will be able to sail for a gold unless your name is Ainslie.

Many mixed-multihull teams, including some extremely successful ones, weigh well above 140 kg. And the new average weight of a mixed team should be 130kgs? This could disqualify 50% of all mixed sailing teams even with dieting.

What weight statistics ISAF used? If you watch real Olympic Athletes and normal average weight statistics, we end up above 140kgs. The 120-140kg team weights with an average of 130kg forces bulimia for Olympic Athletes. Check this.

National Sailing Federations - MNAs
They lost the Starboat. They lost the Elliots. Now they lose the Tornados, which are ready to sail on all continents today. Let’s ask the MNAs what they think about this. Every 4 years the MNAs have to buy new Olympic sailing equipment? Who should finance this?

Media
ISAF want have a small boat. The media will have less interest in it. Sailors get fewer sponsors because the boats are less impactful. This means: Downsize Olympic Multihull Sailing…so the media won’t pay attention…

ISAF Committees
If you looked carefully inside the technical committees of the ISAF, you see sailors with great commercial interest who create the rules the way it fits perfectly to their boats/products they sell. The Tornado Class is a real non-profit organization, but what about the commercial interests of some sailors on the inside? Is it possible that a few bad apples, with a say in the rules, weren’t happy enough to have kicked the Tornado out of the Olympics four years ago so they kicked it out again – but this time, even before reaching the starting line of the ISAF trials? It might just be.

ISAF must act now!
There is only one way to come out of this dilemma. Change the rules and allow the original “Tornado” to sail the ISAF evaluation trials! E-mail me if you think you can help!

Best regards,

Roland Gaebler, Tornado Class President



The Tornado is not ruled out, it just needs a new mast and a slice out of the bows, not really a big deal.

About the requirement to fit into a 20 ft container:
When you have enough boats you can ship twice the number of boats of a 20ft container in a 40 ft one with all the ecologic and economic benefits of it. However, If you have just a few boats, a 20 ft container will be viable and a lot less expensive. Makes sense to me.

I agree that the weight requirement favors a smaller boat. The committee is probably thinking 16 ft. Interestingly the three ISAF guys with whom I talked last week were all thinking F18. They are monohullers, never heard of the F16 and this can probably be credited to a slight but noticeable bias towards Argentina, the only place in S.America where there is an F18 class and an F18 builder.

I guess the requirement of a mast with the same characteristics Hobies have to use in the US is meant to allow Hobie to have a shot at it. Without this requirement they would be in obvious disadvantage vis-a-vis Nacra.


Luiz
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: Luiz] #238280
09/24/11 03:33 AM
09/24/11 03:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
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Tony_F18 Offline
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What about an F18 with a wing?
From what I understand it is good at depowering which is good for a light teams, has lower sheet loads for female crews, and is easy to take apart for shipping.
Pricing might be a little higher but you wont have to replace a sail every few months.

Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: Tony_F18] #238281
09/24/11 06:06 AM
09/24/11 06:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by Tony_F18

Pricing might be a little higher but you wont have to replace a sail every few months.

Only every time you capsize smile

Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: PTP] #238285
09/24/11 08:00 AM
09/24/11 08:00 AM
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Posts: 12
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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The AC guys have actually proposed a 20ft cat with a wing mast for the Olympics. While it does seem quite a leap from what we have currently, there are some very good reasons why it does make sense. They are saying the cost is something like 3,000 Euros (from memory - please don't take this as gospel) more than a soft sailed boat.

I too was pretty sceptical about the issue of damage during capsize, but if you have watched the videos from Plymouth you will see that the only issue is when a crew member falls into the wing - the same problem as if you fall into a soft sail. Compare this to when the guy fell into their carbon mast in Qingdao and broke it in two in the Extreme 40's.

And the skin material is extremely strong and quite inexpensive. $NZ67 worth of material to reskin an AC45, and it is a low skilled job to reglue a new skin.

Would be a kick in the pants, but just not sure if it is what we need in the Olympics.

I would be the first to put my hand up for a sail on one!

So PLEASE, everyone, have a good read of the spec. I didn't write it, but read the details. If a boat doesn't meet all the criteria, then it is NOT AUTOMATICALLY EXCLUDED. Manufacturers just have to come up with reasons why their boat is the best, and they may lose points if they don't fully meet all the requirements in the spec.

Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: Paul Pascoe] #238288
09/24/11 10:03 AM
09/24/11 10:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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At least they didn't include rubber bumpers on the bows in the requirements this time !

Last time I checked the 4.9er masts didn't fit inside a 20 foot container and don't come as a disassemble-able two-piece item either.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: mbounds] #238289
09/24/11 11:05 AM
09/24/11 11:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Does the H16 meet this "athletically challenging to the elite sailors of the world" ?
That's a pretty insulting comment. You ever sail a 16 in big breeze and waves?


Yep; is was fun.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: Wouter] #238296
09/24/11 06:25 PM
09/24/11 06:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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Wouter,

Correct, 49ers don't come with a 2 piece mast. They come as a three piece mast. smile

http://www.southernspars.com/images/library/File/49erUsers_Manual_2010.pdf


Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: Paul Pascoe] #238302
09/25/11 01:41 AM
09/25/11 01:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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I'm aware of that but the joining of the parts is rather permanent. It is not designed to be taken apart regulary for transport. Neither do you want to as you have to take everything off, the multiple diamond wires etc. You loose all trim settings and the bloody thing is stuck half the time because it is hardly ever taken apart or at least it was on the boat i sailed for awhile. We had to hammer it apart (HARD) till we found another way to run any lines through the mast after a mishap. Not something I like to do with a competitive mast.

Come to think of it. I dislike that 49er mast as it leaked like I don't know what, making righing the boat a pain as you always had to wait for the water to drain out through those tiny holes. Not an issue i would like to see repeated on the olympic cat. So other than divisible the cat mast joint better be watertight. To much effort or a feature no- one will use anyway, in my opinion.

But other then that you are right. The mast is a 3-piece section and can theoretically be taken apart. Or better put, it looks that way on paper and that is what counts these days.

Wouter


Last edited by Wouter; 09/25/11 01:45 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Olympic Multihull Specification [Re: Wouter] #238333
09/26/11 12:38 PM
09/26/11 12:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Wow. Just wow. I'm all for freedom of speech and everything, but wow...

Less than a fraction of ONE PERCENT of all of us on this forum have a remote chance (or let's face it, real interest) in actually sailing in an Oly trial, let alone qualifying for the games; no matter what cat design is specified or ultimately selected (on anything from H16 to Tornado to something new with a wing).

So, our interest can only be as spectators. Why are we spending so much energy spouting off about all the things that are wrong with the proposal, rather than helping get behind a boat that will meet the requirements and get selected?

Better than that, start helping some sailors train (or at least raise money) so that when the time comes, they can qualify and ultimately win the event?

After all, it's supposed to be about the sailors, not the boats, right?

And don't wind up about mixed crews anymore. It's not like you were on a two-man crew waiting in the wings to get called to Rio. God forbid you get to watch a girl sail on a catamaran...

Mike

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