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Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Mark Schneider] #238712
10/06/11 03:35 PM
10/06/11 03:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
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jkkartz1 Offline
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Punta Gorda, FL
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Come on... The cost of the boat is related to the game you want to play. You decide if it's worth it!

If you are pursuing an Olympic Campaign...A Tornado would have set you back about that amount.... Is a T worth it?

Take a look at the Melges 20 class... I think those boats are 50 to 60K... They come with an International racing circuit run by the builder. They have more class racing going on then does the F16 which has years of boats out in the fleets at 1/3 the price.

The issue is not the cost of the boat per se... rather... Is there a race or set of races that I simply want to win or own the course records for!

The Seacart 30 that we race against on the Chesapeake is simply gone in any race... Hardly a contest unless it's a reachy kind of day. This owner researched the boat (15 world wide) got a deal, made an offer and decided he wanted to own some records and day sail with his wife!. So, it's worth every penny to him. He has owned LOTs of pricey high tech mono's... and says this is the most fun of them all. (We can't figure out why there are not more deep pocket sailors like him... cause we want a ride like our buddy George snagged)

The problem with the new Nacra boat is that there are no obvious races that you can point the thing at. The good news is that a few owners see it differently...

It's never about the boat... It is always about the game!


And Audi sponsors the Melges 20 class.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: jkkartz1] #238714
10/06/11 04:28 PM
10/06/11 04:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Quote
And Audi sponsors the Melges 20 class.


Yep... that is one way to make an event worth doing... a big sponsor to raise the profile of the event! Your point is exactly?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Mark Schneider] #238715
10/06/11 05:03 PM
10/06/11 05:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
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jkkartz1 Offline
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Punta Gorda, FL
I'm jealous.

I believe that the Melges 20 has an open sail rule. It sure hasn't hurt their class. But, you folks sitting here arguing among yourselves isn't helping anyone.

In my opinion, stay 1 design. Your Nacra 20's have no equeal. But keep the stock sail dimensions, but allow your choice of sailmakers.

Maybe search out the Cal 20 class. Its a monoslug member of the dead boat society, but due to loyalty of the owners, it is an active class.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Mark Schneider] #238716
10/06/11 07:06 PM
10/06/11 07:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
The F20c is not just for distance racing. Its equally good at course racing..I actually thing its an easier boat to sail than an F18. Sheet loads are higher but its more forgiving and the lift from the foils keeps you out of a lot of trouble.

And speaking of distance racing..It seems that in europe they are doing a lot of it. Why not the interest here? I don't mean the extreme events like the Tybee but shorter 2 or 3 day ones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePeoEpEbfd4

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: jkkartz1] #238717
10/06/11 07:10 PM
10/06/11 07:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
In my opinion, stay 1 design. Your Nacra 20's have no equeal. But keep the stock sail dimensions, but allow your choice of sailmakers.



DING DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner!

That's all I want to see happen.



Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: TeamChums] #238722
10/06/11 08:36 PM
10/06/11 08:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
In my opinion, stay 1 design. Your Nacra 20's have no equeal. But keep the stock sail dimensions, but allow your choice of sailmakers.



DING DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner!

That's all I want to see happen.



I agree with that too.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: pitchpoledave] #238729
10/07/11 06:24 AM
10/07/11 06:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
The F20c is not just for distance racing. Its equally good at course racing..I actually thing its an easier boat to sail than an F18. Sheet loads are higher but its more forgiving and the lift from the foils keeps you out of a lot of trouble.

And speaking of distance racing..It seems that in europe they are doing a lot of it. Why not the interest here? I don't mean the extreme events like the Tybee but shorter 2 or 3 day ones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePeoEpEbfd4


I would love to see more 2 days distance racing events that aren't just "straight line" events. There's 1 on the bay, and a few in the Keys (Steeplechase etc.), but Key Largo/Key West is a long, long way to go for many. I would like to see a race in the Tampa Bay area, possibly one in the Charleston area, and maybe another could be done on the North Carolina 100 course but using the ICW instead of the Harlow Canal to eliminate the need to take the mast down.


Scorpion F18
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: samc99us] #238730
10/07/11 06:31 AM
10/07/11 06:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
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orphan Offline
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Daytona Beach Florida
There used to be two great distance races on Tampa Bay. Macho man. Davis Island to Dunedin. And one of my favorites "Run What You Brung". Dunedin to Anna Marie. Spend the night and Anna Marie to Dunedin the following day. With enough interest maybe they could be resurected.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: samc99us] #238731
10/07/11 07:25 AM
10/07/11 07:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
The F20c is not just for distance racing. Its equally good at course racing..I actually thing its an easier boat to sail than an F18. Sheet loads are higher but its more forgiving and the lift from the foils keeps you out of a lot of trouble.

And speaking of distance racing..It seems that in europe they are doing a lot of it. Why not the interest here? I don't mean the extreme events like the Tybee but shorter 2 or 3 day ones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePeoEpEbfd4


I would love to see more 2 days distance racing events that aren't just "straight line" events. There's 1 on the bay, and a few in the Keys (Steeplechase etc.), but Key Largo/Key West is a long, long way to go for many. I would like to see a race in the Tampa Bay area, possibly one in the Charleston area, and maybe another could be done on the North Carolina 100 course but using the ICW instead of the Harlow Canal to eliminate the need to take the mast down.


Charleston would be such a great place to race a distance race. There is so much to race around and see. Though we haven't talked about a distance race, James Island Yacht Club is itching to have some catamaran racing back there. The amount of container shipping going in and out of there has been greatly reduced in the last year or so too (this used to be a pretty sizable issue and sailors in our area have recorded some close calls in the past). There is also an active group of College of Charleston catamaran sailors sailing out of Fort Moultrie.

We've got contacts at the Aquarium on the waterfront across the harbor from James Island and great beaches to race to just outside the harbor. Isle of Palms to the North and Folly Beach to the south.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: orphan] #238736
10/07/11 08:25 AM
10/07/11 08:25 AM

M
MN3
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MN3
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M



Originally Posted by orphan
There used to be two great distance races on Tampa Bay. Macho man. Davis Island to Dunedin. And one of my favorites "Run What You Brung". Dunedin to Anna Marie. Spend the night and Anna Marie to Dunedin the following day. With enough interest maybe they could be resurected.


They held a Macho man here 2 years ago, there was a decent turn out...

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: ] #238738
10/07/11 08:34 AM
10/07/11 08:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by orphan
There used to be two great distance races on Tampa Bay. Macho man. Davis Island to Dunedin. And one of my favorites "Run What You Brung". Dunedin to Anna Marie. Spend the night and Anna Marie to Dunedin the following day. With enough interest maybe they could be resurected.


They held a Macho man here 2 years ago, there was a decent turn out...


It was held this past spring too.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: ] #238739
10/07/11 08:35 AM
10/07/11 08:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
Didn't we sail Macho this year? Or was that the "unofficial" macho?

It's been running for years, as has the Hangover in Tampa Bay. If people are complaining there's not enough distance races, how come attendance has been down at most of the distance events?


Jay

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: ksurfer2] #238740
10/07/11 08:36 AM
10/07/11 08:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by ksurfer2
It was held this past spring too.


You beat me to it....quitter smile


Jay

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238743
10/07/11 08:57 AM
10/07/11 08:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Alright, well, if anyone needs crew for these events I will fly in. "Run what you Brung" sounds like a great event that should be resurrected!


Scorpion F18
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238744
10/07/11 09:03 AM
10/07/11 09:03 AM

M
MN3
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MN3
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Didn't we sail Macho this year? Or was that the "unofficial" macho?

It's been running for years, as has the Hangover in Tampa Bay. If people are complaining there's not enough distance races, how come attendance has been down at most of the distance events?


My bad.. it was this spring.. seemed longer ago.

This event did not have any NOR or race committee.

This years hangover did not happen. There was a lack of interest and support and the fleet basically couldn't cover it's own insurance costs. Bob Barton pulled all the fleet together for beer and burgers at his pool and they resurrected the fleet and have had some races.

Next Sunday is the Barton Sail for Cancer and will probably be a 25 mile distance race for the big boats (causeway around anclote) if it's like his past races.

Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: samc99us] #238745
10/07/11 09:25 AM
10/07/11 09:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by samc99us
Alright, well, if anyone needs crew for these events I will fly in. "Run what you Brung" sounds like a great event that should be resurrected!


It never really died, it's always been an underground type of an affair (on purpose). There is no OA, NOR or SI's just a bunch of rif raf getting together for a sail. Pick a date in the spring.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: ] #238765
10/07/11 11:58 AM
10/07/11 11:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Didn't we sail Macho this year? Or was that the "unofficial" macho?

It's been running for years, as has the Hangover in Tampa Bay. If people are complaining there's not enough distance races, how come attendance has been down at most of the distance events?


My bad.. it was this spring.. seemed longer ago.

This event did not have any NOR or race committee.

This years hangover did not happen. There was a lack of interest and support and the fleet basically couldn't cover it's own insurance costs. Bob Barton pulled all the fleet together for beer and burgers at his pool and they resurrected the fleet and have had some races.

Next Sunday is the Barton Sail for Cancer and will probably be a 25 mile distance race for the big boats (causeway around anclote) if it's like his past races.


Actually, there was no Hangover because the TBCS didn't purchase insurance. Therefore no promotion, no race. The fleet has plenty of money, in fact it could buy insurance for the next ten years without taking in a dime and still have money, it just needs what any club needs, the people that are willing to spend their time to help.

The Macho Man is a run what you brung race. It is a TBCS event. The race has gone since the early 90's as I recall. Basically no rules. First boat back wins period. You can hang as much sail as you want etc. The only rules are the boat must have at least two people and you need to stay out of the Macdill AFB exclusion zone. (I have photographic evidence of all you violators from last year). Oh yea, no entry fee.


Have Fun
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Jake] #238773
10/07/11 01:45 PM
10/07/11 01:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
In my opinion, stay 1 design. Your Nacra 20's have no equeal. But keep the stock sail dimensions, but allow your choice of sailmakers.



DING DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner!

That's all I want to see happen.



I agree with that too.


You weren't very keen on it when I proposed it a few years ago.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #238774
10/07/11 01:48 PM
10/07/11 01:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

You weren't very keen on it when I proposed it a few years ago.


It must have been you. Nah! that couldn't have been it you're one of those people that has to be liked by everyone.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Open 20 rule set [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #238784
10/07/11 08:29 PM
10/07/11 08:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
In my opinion, stay 1 design. Your Nacra 20's have no equeal. But keep the stock sail dimensions, but allow your choice of sailmakers.



DING DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner!

That's all I want to see happen.



I agree with that too.


You weren't very keen on it when I proposed it a few years ago.


I was for modernizing the sail plan but I preferred a one design fashion with one manufacturer because I feel like it fits a niche that is not very available now in the other classes (but I think might have a slight resurgence in the next several years). Compared to the wide open thought that is out there now, I definitely would rather see a standard sail plan rule open to any manufacturer and leave the rest of it one design (except for the snuffer - that thing sucks).

Open sail makers can be cost effective but there is an economy of scale. The N20 does not offer enough numbers that sail makers will willingly foot the development bill for developing a sail that they can market as "faster" or "better" like they do in F18. Because of that, I have a sense of being lost in the forest and choosing a sailmaker is a tough call.

Last edited by Jake; 10/07/11 08:40 PM.

Jake Kohl
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