spin off of the thread TEST SAIL BEFORE BUYING?? I felt like this is a good topic as many people have different takes on the matter. Are boats of the same make same model same set-up gonna sail the same? I don't believe it!!! Every boat is different I dont care if they are the exact same rig in every way one is going to be faster than the other...in my opionion..what do you guys think??

The one with Robbie D. or JC holding the stick is always going to be faster.

I did scoring and boat rotations at the previous 3 Alter Cups and the data from those events points to the boats being very evenly matched. Boats were tuned (by Robbie and his crew) to the same settings and checked regularly during the competition. 20 teams sailed the 10 boats in an average of 20 "heats". Without looking back at the data I can say with a fair amount of certainty that all boats had at least one first and at least one last place finish. Theoretically, if 10 races (20 heats) are held all teams would sail each boat once. In reality, after the 9th race there was usually 1 or more teams that had to repeat on a boat, but we always made it to 9. If the boats had completely equal finishes they would average 5.5, I don't believe this varied more than one point either way. The sailors I asked said they saw the boats as the same.

That being said, I bought a 6.0 from the 2000 (I think) Alter Cup (I was fortunate enough to get to pick second) and I think there was some real disparity amongst those boats. Several stayed in this area and we saw some real differences. I asked the competitors at the end of the Regatta and they had some real favorites and some they thought were dogs.

AHPC quality control vs. Nacra quality control? Beach crew quality control? Some of both?

*cough* *cough* beach crew.....


I stand by every Viper I've had has felt a bit different. Was it major? No, but some just felt better than others. I completely concede that it could be all be in my head as well.

I do know that I have a sail that is just fackin fast, or at the least the mast settings that I'm running are just spot on for that main.

Well now, let's be logical about this. If every single thing between the two boats is exactly the same (same rigging, same weight, same stiffness, same shape, etc) then you wouldn't even be able to tell them apart, much less tell if one is faster than the other.

That said, boats are generally hand laid fiberglass which means there is probably a lot of variability in the construction process. Unless the quality control is very good (which would mean a lot of rejects at the factory,) there are going to be differences in weight and stiffness of the hulls especially.

excellent response!! considering all those variables, what if there were no differences including variations in construction? I still think one would be superior to the other in some way shape or form.

Magical thinking will take you anywhere you want to go... except Mathland.

Perhaps there used to be...but there is not much variability in the lamination schedule of boats. Fabrics and reinforcements are cut using templates, placed by design, and the amount used is by design. Even the resin is pre-weighed and measured before applying. Most of this is born out of cost control but with a bend toward making a reliable platform. I've been to the Nacra factory while it was in the US and seen a few boats being constructed. Short of how a boat is treated by an owner, I wouldn't expect much difference between boats manufactured in the last 10 years or so.

I would be more concerned that the rigging lengths are the same rather than the hull layups.

And what about the Sails? How "Standard" are they? As Karl points out, you get the right sail on the right mast, you have something...wrong sail, wrong mast (settings, bend, etc.) and now you're "slow". I know I've got two spinnakers, a slow one and a fast one. But they are by two different manufacturers, so you would expect there to be differences.

I know nothing of building sails, I'm sure the panels are cut by a computer, but are they then sewn/glued together by hand? And what are the tollerances when they are doing that?

No matter what you are building (boats, sails, etc.) there are going to be very small variances. I know some of the serious Laser racers are freaks when it comes to "Picking" a boat, they measure a bunch of hulls, weigh them, flex them etc, same with their masts, sails and blades. They want the lightest, stiffest stuff they can get... and then they buy a new one every year, as their old one is "worn out".

To be honest, only a few boats are that bad in durability as a Laser But I don't want to start a Laser bashing thread here. So for sure it is one of the greatets boats.

Good sailmakers will sew quite equally. Have a look at your sail at the seams. For sure boats are not absolutly equal. Some my argue that 200g are imprtant, but this is fishing for excuses. Free your mind, go sailing and tune your boat to your style. That is fast and makes the difference

Certainly mind set has a lot to do with it! If you think your boat/sails/etc. are 'slow' chances are you are not going to push as hard when you should. "What's the Use" is the mindset.

In Dennis Connor's book, "No Excuse to Lose" he talks about it, and Stuart Walker has one called simply "Winning", which goes much deeper into the psychological aspects of the mind being pre-disposed to win...or lose, regardless of new boat, new sails, etc.

Connor makes a good point though. He says to go out and buy the best stuff you can, get what ever it is that the class champions are using, the same boat, the same sails, etc. so when you get out on the race course, you can't blame your boat/sails/etc. In effect, you will give yourself -No Excuse to Lose-, so you must push yourself harder to win, or admit you just suck...some people just can't go there, must be the boat!

Different ways of motivation. Back in the days when I was cycling, I had a cheap bike and it was a good kick to beat all those guys with there super titanium everywhere NASA designed bikes.
But I can imagine, that if you have won everything already you need some special motivation.

The new boat subscription sure helped me. After fixing up a Nacra 5.2, Nacra 6.0, etc. etc., I bought an F18 new in 2004 and joined the F18 fleet. wow - did I get my butt kicked...and wow - did I really start to figure out how to sail fast much more quickly than the first 5 years I sailed competitively. Every boat I owned, I hit the beach always thinking how I need to tweak this or that or how I need to replace a sail to get faster but I never realized how much of my poor result was technique - probably 99% or more. Sailing a new boat took away every mental excuse I could muster until I started really looking at how I was sailing the boat.

If I had invested in some coaching, I probably could have shortened that 5 year span of slow sailing.

I think in the test sail thread he was talking a/b used boats.

In the cat world, the miles and prep work are HUGE. The Black Alexander’s N20 was a fast boat, no question about it. I've probably sailed at least 15 different N20's and that one had to be one of the best. That boat had a TON of miles on it but was still super stiff and fast when it was sold.

I'd attribute that to the beams being faired in and attention to detail regarding all the systems on board. Shims were put in to keep things from moving and wearing, foils were kept up and sails were always carefully stored inside. Nice cradles with extra foam were used to protect the hulls... So even after a couple of Worrells and who knows how many other races, it didn't have the battle scars that many did.

When I was sailing J boats, it was obvious which boats were fastest. If the former owner faired the keel and rudder, it made a big difference in speed and feel. Also, slight misalignments in the appendages made a big difference in feel and speed. It was apparent sailing as many different J22's and 80's as I did that some hulls, regardless of setup were just faster. We never could figure out "the" reason, but suspected hull/keel/rudder alignment.

Besides wear and tear, how the boat is setup makes a huge difference. A boat with user friendly systems can save a ton of time at transitions and allow for much easier fine tuing adjustments while underway. All that adds up to boat lengths on the course.... But if you suck, the fastest thing on the water won't do any good....

Speed difference in two of the same boats is minute. Not measurable. Conditions in real world testing are too variable. You can line two boats up but there are always small differences in wind, waves, set up and skippers between the two. One will be faster for those reasons. You can try to figure it out, blame it on the boat etc. but if you boat speed is close tactics and boat handling will win in a race. Luck helps but not every time.

>Speed difference in two of the same boats is minute. Not measurable... <

I have found minute speed difference off the starting line make a difference.
Assuming similar skippers, if your cat can not keep up with the front line,
gain a couple 'minute' feet, and break out with clear air,
you may be history, in the second rank with bad air?

Karl, I didn't want to hijack this tread, so I sent you a PM about your mast settings on your Viper.

Responded

We're not comparing the same thing. When tuning up, boats need good lanes, clear air to get an idea of speed differences. If you have a bad start it is certainly not the boat's fault.

To know for sure if a boat is fast or slow you must spend a lot of time tuning up with each other. Switching position (windward boat/leeward boat). Watching wind shifts ie. if you get headed the leeward boat will look faster. And trading boats. Eliminating as many variables as possible. Start lines are never perfect and have many variables.

>We're not comparing the same thing. When tuning up,...<
Agreed, and someone may begin a 'tuning' thread.

Meticulous tuning is great for getting ready for the big dance, >Eliminating as many variables as possible.<
Yes, hopefully meticulous tuning has found a measurable 'minute' gain after a couple hundred yards of the start and yield clear air,
despite >Start lines are never perfect and have many variables.< least all the time tuning is for ...