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Is one faster than the other?? #239653
11/02/11 03:42 PM
11/02/11 03:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
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Panama City, FL
PCFL waterman Offline OP
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Panama City, FL
spin off of the thread TEST SAIL BEFORE BUYING?? I felt like this is a good topic as many people have different takes on the matter. Are boats of the same make same model same set-up gonna sail the same? I don't believe it!!! Every boat is different I dont care if they are the exact same rig in every way one is going to be faster than the other...in my opionion..what do you guys think??


Live Slow, Sail Fast!!
--roger--
Bimare Javelin 18HT 2
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239654
11/02/11 03:47 PM
11/02/11 03:47 PM
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pgp Offline
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The one with Robbie D. or JC holding the stick is always going to be faster.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239656
11/02/11 04:56 PM
11/02/11 04:56 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
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I did scoring and boat rotations at the previous 3 Alter Cups and the data from those events points to the boats being very evenly matched. Boats were tuned (by Robbie and his crew) to the same settings and checked regularly during the competition. 20 teams sailed the 10 boats in an average of 20 "heats". Without looking back at the data I can say with a fair amount of certainty that all boats had at least one first and at least one last place finish. Theoretically, if 10 races (20 heats) are held all teams would sail each boat once. In reality, after the 9th race there was usually 1 or more teams that had to repeat on a boat, but we always made it to 9. If the boats had completely equal finishes they would average 5.5, I don't believe this varied more than one point either way. The sailors I asked said they saw the boats as the same.

That being said, I bought a 6.0 from the 2000 (I think) Alter Cup (I was fortunate enough to get to pick second) and I think there was some real disparity amongst those boats. Several stayed in this area and we saw some real differences. I asked the competitors at the end of the Regatta and they had some real favorites and some they thought were dogs.

AHPC quality control vs. Nacra quality control? Beach crew quality control? Some of both?


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: KevinRejda] #239661
11/02/11 05:56 PM
11/02/11 05:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by KevinRejda
AHPC quality control vs. Nacra quality control? Beach crew quality control? Some of both?


*cough* *cough* beach crew.....


I stand by every Viper I've had has felt a bit different. Was it major? No, but some just felt better than others. I completely concede that it could be all be in my head as well.

I do know that I have a sail that is just fackin fast, or at the least the mast settings that I'm running are just spot on for that main.


I'm boatless.
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239670
11/02/11 07:42 PM
11/02/11 07:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
daniel_t Offline
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Palm Harbor, FL
Originally Posted by PCFL waterman
Are boats of the same make same model same set-up gonna sail the same? I don't believe it!!! Every boat is different I dont care if they are the exact same rig in every way one is going to be faster than the other...in my opionion..what do you guys think??


Well now, let's be logical about this. If every single thing between the two boats is exactly the same (same rigging, same weight, same stiffness, same shape, etc) then you wouldn't even be able to tell them apart, much less tell if one is faster than the other.

That said, boats are generally hand laid fiberglass which means there is probably a lot of variability in the construction process. Unless the quality control is very good (which would mean a lot of rejects at the factory,) there are going to be differences in weight and stiffness of the hulls especially.


Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: daniel_t] #239672
11/02/11 08:05 PM
11/02/11 08:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 8
Panama City, FL
PCFL waterman Offline OP
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Panama City, FL
excellent response!! considering all those variables, what if there were no differences including variations in construction? I still think one would be superior to the other in some way shape or form.


Live Slow, Sail Fast!!
--roger--
Bimare Javelin 18HT 2
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239673
11/02/11 08:10 PM
11/02/11 08:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Magical thinking will take you anywhere you want to go... except Mathland. wink


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: daniel_t] #239674
11/03/11 05:55 AM
11/03/11 05:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by daniel_t
Originally Posted by PCFL waterman
Are boats of the same make same model same set-up gonna sail the same? I don't believe it!!! Every boat is different I dont care if they are the exact same rig in every way one is going to be faster than the other...in my opionion..what do you guys think??


Well now, let's be logical about this. If every single thing between the two boats is exactly the same (same rigging, same weight, same stiffness, same shape, etc) then you wouldn't even be able to tell them apart, much less tell if one is faster than the other.

That said, boats are generally hand laid fiberglass which means there is probably a lot of variability in the construction process. Unless the quality control is very good (which would mean a lot of rejects at the factory,) there are going to be differences in weight and stiffness of the hulls especially.


Perhaps there used to be...but there is not much variability in the lamination schedule of boats. Fabrics and reinforcements are cut using templates, placed by design, and the amount used is by design. Even the resin is pre-weighed and measured before applying. Most of this is born out of cost control but with a bend toward making a reliable platform. I've been to the Nacra factory while it was in the US and seen a few boats being constructed. Short of how a boat is treated by an owner, I wouldn't expect much difference between boats manufactured in the last 10 years or so.

I would be more concerned that the rigging lengths are the same rather than the hull layups.


Jake Kohl
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239675
11/03/11 06:07 AM
11/03/11 06:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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And what about the Sails? How "Standard" are they? As Karl points out, you get the right sail on the right mast, you have something...wrong sail, wrong mast (settings, bend, etc.) and now you're "slow". I know I've got two spinnakers, a slow one and a fast one. But they are by two different manufacturers, so you would expect there to be differences.

I know nothing of building sails, I'm sure the panels are cut by a computer, but are they then sewn/glued together by hand? And what are the tollerances when they are doing that?

No matter what you are building (boats, sails, etc.) there are going to be very small variances. I know some of the serious Laser racers are freaks when it comes to "Picking" a boat, they measure a bunch of hulls, weigh them, flex them etc, same with their masts, sails and blades. They want the lightest, stiffest stuff they can get... and then they buy a new one every year, as their old one is "worn out".


Blade F16
#777
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239702
11/03/11 12:50 PM
11/03/11 12:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Hamburg
To be honest, only a few boats are that bad in durability as a Laser wink But I don't want to start a Laser bashing thread here. So for sure it is one of the greatets boats.

Good sailmakers will sew quite equally. Have a look at your sail at the seams. For sure boats are not absolutly equal. Some my argue that 200g are imprtant, but this is fishing for excuses. Free your mind, go sailing and tune your boat to your style. That is fast and makes the difference

Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239707
11/03/11 01:01 PM
11/03/11 01:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Certainly mind set has a lot to do with it! If you think your boat/sails/etc. are 'slow' chances are you are not going to push as hard when you should. "What's the Use" is the mindset.

In Dennis Connor's book, "No Excuse to Lose" he talks about it, and Stuart Walker has one called simply "Winning", which goes much deeper into the psychological aspects of the mind being pre-disposed to win...or lose, regardless of new boat, new sails, etc.

Connor makes a good point though. He says to go out and buy the best stuff you can, get what ever it is that the class champions are using, the same boat, the same sails, etc. so when you get out on the race course, you can't blame your boat/sails/etc. In effect, you will give yourself -No Excuse to Lose-, so you must push yourself harder to win, or admit you just suck...some people just can't go there, must be the boat!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239710
11/03/11 01:15 PM
11/03/11 01:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Hamburg
Different ways of motivation. Back in the days when I was cycling, I had a cheap bike and it was a good kick to beat all those guys with there super titanium everywhere NASA designed bikes.
But I can imagine, that if you have won everything already you need some special motivation.

Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: Smiths_Cat] #239729
11/03/11 06:41 PM
11/03/11 06:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Different ways of motivation. Back in the days when I was cycling, I had a cheap bike and it was a good kick to beat all those guys with there super titanium everywhere NASA designed bikes.
But I can imagine, that if you have won everything already you need some special motivation.


The new boat subscription sure helped me. After fixing up a Nacra 5.2, Nacra 6.0, etc. etc., I bought an F18 new in 2004 and joined the F18 fleet. wow - did I get my butt kicked...and wow - did I really start to figure out how to sail fast much more quickly than the first 5 years I sailed competitively. Every boat I owned, I hit the beach always thinking how I need to tweak this or that or how I need to replace a sail to get faster but I never realized how much of my poor result was technique - probably 99% or more. Sailing a new boat took away every mental excuse I could muster until I started really looking at how I was sailing the boat.

If I had invested in some coaching, I probably could have shortened that 5 year span of slow sailing.


Jake Kohl
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239752
11/04/11 01:52 PM
11/04/11 01:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
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Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
I think in the test sail thread he was talking a/b used boats.

In the cat world, the miles and prep work are HUGE. The Black Alexander’s N20 was a fast boat, no question about it. I've probably sailed at least 15 different N20's and that one had to be one of the best. That boat had a TON of miles on it but was still super stiff and fast when it was sold.

I'd attribute that to the beams being faired in and attention to detail regarding all the systems on board. Shims were put in to keep things from moving and wearing, foils were kept up and sails were always carefully stored inside. Nice cradles with extra foam were used to protect the hulls... So even after a couple of Worrells and who knows how many other races, it didn't have the battle scars that many did.

When I was sailing J boats, it was obvious which boats were fastest. If the former owner faired the keel and rudder, it made a big difference in speed and feel. Also, slight misalignments in the appendages made a big difference in feel and speed. It was apparent sailing as many different J22's and 80's as I did that some hulls, regardless of setup were just faster. We never could figure out "the" reason, but suspected hull/keel/rudder alignment.

Besides wear and tear, how the boat is setup makes a huge difference. A boat with user friendly systems can save a ton of time at transitions and allow for much easier fine tuing adjustments while underway. All that adds up to boat lengths on the course.... But if you suck, the fastest thing on the water won't do any good....

Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: PCFL waterman] #239793
11/07/11 12:46 AM
11/07/11 12:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 32
E
evansdb78 Offline
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Speed difference in two of the same boats is minute. Not measurable. Conditions in real world testing are too variable. You can line two boats up but there are always small differences in wind, waves, set up and skippers between the two. One will be faster for those reasons. You can try to figure it out, blame it on the boat etc. but if you boat speed is close tactics and boat handling will win in a race. Luck helps but not every time.

Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: evansdb78] #239797
11/07/11 08:58 AM
11/07/11 08:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
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FL
>Speed difference in two of the same boats is minute. Not measurable... <

I have found minute speed difference off the starting line make a difference.
Assuming similar skippers, if your cat can not keep up with the front line,
gain a couple 'minute' feet, and break out with clear air,
you may be history, in the second rank with bad air?

Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #239802
11/07/11 11:20 AM
11/07/11 11:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
SoggyCheetoh Offline
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Northern Virginia
Karl, I didn't want to hijack this tread, so I sent you a PM about your mast settings on your Viper.


Alec D.
Pirates of the Chesapeake www.teampiratesofthechesapeake.com
Nacra20 1057 - Crew
F16 Viper 152 - Uni
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: SoggyCheetoh] #239811
11/07/11 12:26 PM
11/07/11 12:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by SoggyCheetoh
Karl, I didn't want to hijack this tread, so I sent you a PM about your mast settings on your Viper.


Responded


I'm boatless.
Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: sail7seas] #239821
11/07/11 01:47 PM
11/07/11 01:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 32
E
evansdb78 Offline
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Originally Posted by sail7seas
>Speed difference in two of the same boats is minute. Not measurable... <

I have found minute speed difference off the starting line make a difference.
Assuming similar skippers, if your cat can not keep up with the front line,
gain a couple 'minute' feet, and break out with clear air,
you may be history, in the second rank with bad air?


We're not comparing the same thing. When tuning up, boats need good lanes, clear air to get an idea of speed differences. If you have a bad start it is certainly not the boat's fault.

To know for sure if a boat is fast or slow you must spend a lot of time tuning up with each other. Switching position (windward boat/leeward boat). Watching wind shifts ie. if you get headed the leeward boat will look faster. And trading boats. Eliminating as many variables as possible. Start lines are never perfect and have many variables.

Re: Is one faster than the other?? [Re: evansdb78] #239854
11/08/11 10:17 AM
11/08/11 10:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
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FL
Originally Posted by evansdb78
Originally Posted by sail7seas
>Speed difference in two of the same boats is minute. Not measurable... <

I have found minute speed difference off the starting line make a difference.
Assuming similar skippers, if your cat can not keep up with the front line,
gain a couple 'minute' feet, and break out with clear air,
you may be history, in the second rank with bad air?


We're not comparing the same thing. When tuning up, boats need good lanes, clear air to get an idea of speed differences. If you have a bad start it is certainly not the boat's fault.

To know for sure if a boat is fast or slow you must spend a lot of time tuning up with each other. Switching position (windward boat/leeward boat). Watching wind shifts ie. if you get headed the leeward boat will look faster. And trading boats. Eliminating as many variables as possible. Start lines are never perfect and have many variables.


>We're not comparing the same thing. When tuning up,...<
Agreed, and someone may begin a 'tuning' thread.

Meticulous tuning is great for getting ready for the big dance, >Eliminating as many variables as possible.<
Yes, hopefully meticulous tuning has found a measurable 'minute' gain after a couple hundred yards of the start and yield clear air,
despite >Start lines are never perfect and have many variables.< least all the time tuning is for ...

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