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In problems after capsizing in big waves #241084
12/12/11 11:04 AM
12/12/11 11:04 AM
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Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline OP
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A few weeks ago there was a discussion here about ways of optimal uprighting, but let me bring up another matter concerning this topic.

This weekend it happended to me again after three years of avoiding capsizing, that I was pushed over. Far after the break zone I was on my way back to the beach and was overtaken by a steep freak wave of about 4 to 5 meter
I started riding the wave with my tail but at one point the wave started to break and I was going to dive with my bowes down.

So in fear I steered up the wave again but the breaking water pushed me on my side. (Mainsail couldn't be unsheeted quickly because it was stalling). So I went over completly.

Now, in contrast with the above mentioned discussion, in waves uprighting is often very simple. The hulls are catched bij the waves, so they turn off the waves while the mast and sail stays backwards in the waves.
When uprighting you wait till a next wave lifts the sail while the hull stays relatively low at the bottom of the wave.
It's easy said, but in practice you can indeed upright in seconds.

But, there is ofcourse always a but. Afterwards I could not climb on board; I struggled 10 minutes but nothing worked.

Problem is with my latest 15 footer: I have to stay nearby the front of the windwardhull because going to the transom will capsize the cat backwards. Remind that the cat is unloaded and a playing ball for the incoming waves. No pressure of the sail so the bowes are lifted constanly.

Exhausted, this singlehanded oldy couldn't lift himself in one move against the forebeam. With my momentary cat I don't have a dolphinstriker, so there is nothing to help there and my freeboard appears to be too high, especially with lifted bowes.

My question is: Does this sound familiar to anyone and does anyone have a solution


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241085
12/12/11 11:12 AM
12/12/11 11:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
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pgp Offline
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VERY familiar.

I run a heavy, somewhat stretchy dock line from the rear cross bar to the bridle. Then when trying to get aboard, I just put a KNEE on the line and using my hands on the hull just fall forward onto the hull, then it's a simple matter of rolling over into a sitting position. I use a small line tied around the forward cross bar to keep the larger line from dragging. Also, I've a few knots in the large line to keep my knee from sliding.

I emphasise KNEE because I tried for a year to use my foot and it just threw me off balance!

Last edited by pgp; 12/12/11 01:43 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241088
12/12/11 11:50 AM
12/12/11 11:50 AM
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Just to have it right: with bridle you mean forestaybridle?
So this dock line goes from behind to the front and is hanging overboard when needed? Is there one line in the middle or two each on the side?


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: pgp] #241089
12/12/11 12:02 PM
12/12/11 12:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp

I run a heavy, somewhat stretchy dock line from the rear cross bar to the bridle. Then when trying to get aboard, I just put a KNEE on the line and using my hands on the hull just fall forward onto the hull, then it's a simple matter of rolling over into a sitting position. I use a small line tied around the forward cross bar to keep the larger line from dragging. Also, I've a few knots in the large line to keep my knee from sliding.

I emphasis KNEE because I tried for a year to use my foot and it just threw me off balance!


A few weekends ago we rescued a cat with a single righting line tied to the mastfoot and found it difficult to climb into after righted.
I made a bowline in the bitter end of the righting line and used it as a step to climb aboard. Maybe the knee would have been easier to balance, I should give it a try the next time.


Luiz
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241091
12/12/11 01:12 PM
12/12/11 01:12 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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May I suggest a structured approach to pull-ups and dip exercises. smile

It is never to late to work out and gain strength.

For those fresh to strength training, might I suggest..:

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Gymn...mp;ie=UTF8&qid=1323713452&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Weeks-Pull-Up...mp;ie=UTF8&qid=1323713386&sr=1-1

All you need is motivation and a set of rings for home use, or a pull-up bar.
Tip for hardcore capsizers: When trying to pull up from the water, try to place your wrists on the egde of the hull, not the palms or hanging from your fingers. This will make it much easier to transition from the pulling to the pushing movement.

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 12/12/11 01:20 PM.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241092
12/12/11 01:25 PM
12/12/11 01:25 PM
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Petten Netherlands
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Okay Pgp, thanks for your bright idea for the use of the knee.

But let me play a little devils advocate:

First I'm afraid to leave my comfortable place inside the space of the front of the hulls after uprighting. I'm protected there for incoming waves and at least I don't see them anymore!
I should have to dive under the windward hull to get to the outside for grabbing the dockline. There is this fear that, when I come on the surface, the cat is just pushed away by
an incoming wave (I didn't tell you, but I cannot swim anymore caused by shoulderproblems)

But I can ofcourse move the whole trick to the frontal inside of the windward hull. Problem is that with my asymmetric hull shape, this inside is very rounded while the outside is flat. So my knee threatens to disappear to much under the hull.

But now I have to think again everything ten times over. I'm sure you have given me the important brainwave.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241095
12/12/11 01:42 PM
12/12/11 01:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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I haven't done it in big waves, but my method of climbing back aboard is pretty simple. I move to a bow; push it down to the point where I can sit on it; and then slide aft to the trampoline. That's much easier than my previous technique of using the righting bar wires as a ladder.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241098
12/12/11 01:49 PM
12/12/11 01:49 PM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Just to have it right: with bridle you mean forestaybridle?
So this dock line goes from behind to the front and is hanging overboard when needed? Is there one line in the middle or two each on the side?


Yes, to the forestay bridle. The line runs under the trampoline and is always in place.

I use just one line, along the port hull, because my spinnaker gear takes up too much room on the other side.

If you use just a bowline and loop and the boat has any headway, you end up being dragged under the boat.

It is easy to become fatigued so practice your plan and learn it well so you can reboard quickly.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: Isotope235] #241099
12/12/11 01:59 PM
12/12/11 01:59 PM

M
MN3
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MN3
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M



Originally Posted by Isotope42
I haven't done it in big waves, but my method of climbing back aboard is pretty simple. I move to a bow; push it down to the point where I can sit on it; and then slide aft to the trampoline. That's much easier than my previous technique of using the righting bar wires as a ladder.

I hope that helps,
Eric


an 800lb guerrilla couldn't push my bow down to the water. way to much freeboard and hull volume.

I have struggled until exhaustion trying to pull myself up the bows/front beam. I now go to the site, grab a trap bungee, get hold of the handle and pull my feet up. Once a foot or 2 is on board, i pull my hips/butt over and then my chest/head.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241102
12/12/11 02:23 PM
12/12/11 02:23 PM
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I think you have to really ask yourself if it is a good idea to go sailing by yourself on the north sea this time of year.
Just last thursday 11 meter waves where recorded during a storm.
Maybe you are just a bit "eigenwijs", but hypothermia is a real danger when you float around in the cold water for 30 minutes.
[Linked Image]

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: ] #241103
12/12/11 02:25 PM
12/12/11 02:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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This is one of my favorite subjects, because I cannot get back aboard my Hobie Wave. Still have not come up with a good solution, including the ones suggested above.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241105
12/12/11 02:50 PM
12/12/11 02:50 PM
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Petten Netherlands
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Tony, fellowcountryman, I really like your concern about my adventures at the north sea this time of year.

But look to it from my site: I'm 65, not as strong anymore as I used to be, I have on each site a torn shoulder labrum. Which cannot be repaired anymore by surgery.
Still I can manage to sail singlehanded at sea with a lot of tricks and technique. Besides that I windsurf already 35 years at sea, summer and winter time and my specialty has always been storms.


So, I feel at home alone at sea in cold water between big waves. And my real problems are my shoulders, and my wornout knees and tendinitus arms. And hence my urge to open this thread.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 12/12/11 02:57 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241106
12/12/11 02:55 PM
12/12/11 02:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Quote
I feel at home alone at sea in cold water between big waves. And my real problems are my shoulders, and my wornout knees and tendinitus arms.


Didn't really say anything to help your case


craig van eaton
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Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241107
12/12/11 03:02 PM
12/12/11 03:02 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Labrum or rotator cuff?
Doing any prehap/rehab on the labrums?

I would look outside the ordinary medic school/physio stuff for exercises to improve the situation.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: Mary] #241110
12/12/11 03:25 PM
12/12/11 03:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Mary
This is one of my favorite subjects, because I cannot get back aboard my Hobie Wave. Still have not come up with a good solution, including the ones suggested above.


I was thinking a rope ladder with wooden steps that you can roll up and keep on the rear beam, but that may not look "fast"...

And given Pete Cullum's "issue" at Steeplechase, I'm considering one of those line bags you throw like a football with about 150' of line in it to toss at whomever falls overboard so it improves their chances of staying connected to the boat once I park it /flip it

Conversely, perhaps I could attach the line bag to the beam AND myself so the line stays tucked up in the little pouch unless I fall overboard. The 150' should give me enough time to orient myself and hold it rather than get dragged like a shorter static line would...

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 12/12/11 03:27 PM.

Jay

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #241111
12/12/11 03:26 PM
12/12/11 03:26 PM
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Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
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Can you get to the stern OK?
I figured out how to mount at the stern easily when I had an injured shoulder: 1) slide aft & get between the stern and the tiller crossbar while the boat is stalled to weather. (You can steer it up that way too) 2) Get one foot up on the deck while facing DOWNWARD. 3)reach way up onto the tramp and grab the hiking strap with the closest arm to the boat, because THAT ELBOW IS UP. 4) Now POWER body up & over the rear crossbar because you lift by using the muscles on the FRONT of your leg, and your arm is bent the correct way for good strength. You don't even need both legs on the stern hull, just one leg.

Its even good for fatboys! Try it on a nice day.

NOTE: Doing this facing UP does not work because you have to use hamstrings, and your elbow cannot bend the wrong way= no strength.


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: waterbug_wpb] #241112
12/12/11 03:28 PM
12/12/11 03:28 PM
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Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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For Mary: see above. The stern deck is much closer to the water- so park the boat, slide back underneath, and try this......

Last edited by dacarls; 12/12/11 03:29 PM.

Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: dacarls] #241115
12/12/11 04:14 PM
12/12/11 04:14 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Originally Posted by dacarls

1) slide aft & get between the stern and the tiller crossbar while the boat is stalled to weather. (You can steer it up that way too)

2) Get one foot up on the deck while facing DOWNWARD.

3)reach way up onto the tramp and grab the hiking strap with the closest arm to the boat, because THAT ELBOW IS UP.

4) Now POWER body up & over the rear crossbar because you lift by using the muscles on the FRONT of your leg, and your arm is bent the correct way for good strength. You don't even need both legs on the stern hull, just one leg.

Its even good for fatboys! Try it on a nice day.

NOTE: Doing this facing UP does not work because you have to use hamstrings, and your elbow cannot bend the wrong way= no strength.



You should make a video and post it smile

To be honest, it sounds good but what about getting air while manouvering your body into position?

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241116
12/12/11 04:39 PM
12/12/11 04:39 PM
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Okay,last participants.

So, despite the strenght I still have, I'm fysically a bit disabled with regard to catsailing. And I'm sure that certainly made the climbing aboard this weekend impossible.
(Rolf !, an orthopedic professor tried to reconstruct my labrum on one site, but invain because a few years later it was ripped off again).
But there are more sailors ( like mary or MN3 or pgp ) who have more or less the same problem for whatever ( less severe) reason.

But as I explained, going via the stern in big waves is impossible because the cat will flipover backwards.
Even via the outside windwardsite is under those conditions very risky for loosing contact with my cat. And also there is the danger that I get trapped in my open net tramp with the trapezehook down.

So I'm now still thinking of a solution from the inside space between the hulls just in front of the frontbeam.
With a rope/woodenstep help which is kept straight down when loaded with my knee or foot by a separate line to the bridle. Or something like this.



ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241117
12/12/11 04:44 PM
12/12/11 04:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
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pgp Offline
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http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant...311&Category_Code=&Store_Code=MS

I went to one of these,and think it is well worth the money.

Last edited by pgp; 12/12/11 04:44 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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