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going downhill with my body leads to cat adaption
by northsea junkie. 03/12/20 08:13 AM
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by H17cat. 03/04/20 06:33 PM
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Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241142
12/13/11 03:23 AM
12/13/11 03:23 AM
Joined: May 2006
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Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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If you rig a trap handle on a trap wire low enough to grab hold of with both hands at a comfortable stretch from the water you can hook both your legs over your bow near the beam, then use both arms to hold your weight and your legs to pull you up to get your backside on the beam then roll sideways over the main beam with a bit of help from your arms. This is only a lift of 2ft from the water. The wire with a handle could even run straight down your mast as long as it doesn't foul your jib


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
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Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241143
12/13/11 05:00 AM
12/13/11 05:00 AM
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Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline OP
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Pete, replacing my trapeze hook by this new design plate is in any case a brilliant idea. Thank you for reminding me; it exists already for years, but I forgot it completly.

Jeff, I think I understand the move, but I 've to try it.
I'm thinking of making a trial stand of my cat on the trailer with the bows 1 or 2 ft above the ground. So I can try all these different methods on forehand in a dry manner; a first scan so to say.

I have to admit that I am to blame seriously for not having tried this procedure with my new cat somewhere in the three years I sail it already. Why didn't I jump sometime in the summer in lazy flat conditions overboard!!!!!!!

With all my so-called experience which made me so cautious. Stupid,stupid, or did mr. Altzheimer already passed silently my window. Hmmm .. do I try to find excuses now.

Life of a northsea junkie remains difficult.


ronald reeder

Last edited by northsea junkie; 12/13/11 05:23 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241145
12/13/11 07:00 AM
12/13/11 07:00 AM
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West coast of Norway
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I have never had this need but I spent some time thinking about the issue before going to sleep last night.

I think any kind of contraption like rope ladders etc in the water will be hard to use. Rope ladders themself are hard to climb.
From the climbing world there is a thing called a "Jumar" or in its modern form: Petzl Ascender. With a classic technical climbing setup with one Ascender and one "basic" rope lock, you could use the same technique as long as you have one 9mm line leading into the water.
It is quite a setup to get to know, and best if rigged before the capsize. But it should allow you to not use significant power in your upper body and put the load on your legs instead.
Look at the picture and you can see that he is using a sling down to his foot to "climb" the line.

Just a suggestion if you have to rely on your lower body to get onboard the boat after a capsize. Might be unsafe as well if you find yourself trapped under a speeding boat after righting..
http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/ascenders

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241146
12/13/11 07:20 AM
12/13/11 07:20 AM
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Netherlands
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Just a thought, but why not mount some footstraps on the inside of the bows, near the front cross bar?

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241148
12/13/11 07:37 AM
12/13/11 07:37 AM
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pgp Offline
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Rolf, Dennis: one of the biggest problems I find is that the boat gathers headway almost immediatly, and tends to run over you! This is not in the extreme but all the gear (I've tried several arrangements) seems to get swept under the boat. The line I use runs the length of the hull, and is attached at both ends. So, if you should find yourself under the boat you can pull yourself forward again. Even the little resistance the knot provides for your knee is enough to overcome the boat's forward motion with little effort. Simpler is better in this case, imo.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241174
12/13/11 01:13 PM
12/13/11 01:13 PM
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Hamburg
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Before righting you should have opened all sheets, downhaul traveller and rotator. If you hang at the bow or front beam the boat should not bear away and gain speed, maybe it goes backward. If so you can let drift your legs to the bows, lay one feet on the bridle wire. Then you can easily lift the other leg and one arm on the hull. Then you are up.

Going to the rear beam sounds dangerous if there are waves. The boat could easily bear away. In the best case it just flips over, in the worst you can say goodbay to the boat.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241178
12/13/11 02:23 PM
12/13/11 02:23 PM
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Palm Harbor, FL
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
I'm thinking of making a trial stand of my cat on the trailer with the bows 1 or 2 ft above the ground. So I can try all these different methods on forehand in a dry manner; a first scan so to say.


That doesn't sound all that useful. When you are in the water, you are much lighter than when on dry land.

I'm a little hesitant to give advice here because I have never dealt with such waves, but it seems to me that timing would have a lot to do with it. When the boat is pointing up toward the crest, you would be pulling yourself somewhat down hill which should help.

So far, all I have needed to do in order to get on board is a couple strong kicks to swim myself up high enough to get back on board. I hardly use my upper body at all. Just like getting out of a pool.



Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241180
12/13/11 02:42 PM
12/13/11 02:42 PM
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Petten Netherlands
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Daniel, You are right about the land trial. I tried it to day, but found myself lifting in impossible positions my 100 kg.
Ended up using a strong painkiller because my shoulders protested immmediatly.

The getting-out-of-the-pool method you described, is ofcourse the most logical method, but I don't manage that anymore.


Smith, you are right about the lack of headway when unsheeting completly. I do this always before uprighting. Also to prevent the unwanted roll-over to the next site when the boat has come up and tends to heel furher.
The method you described though, is abacadabra for me. I couldn't visualize it.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241224
12/13/11 05:35 PM
12/13/11 05:35 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,382
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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I assist in a disabled sailing program at our club, we found that if you need to use your leg to push up, a rope ladder is more of a problem. We had an A Cat sailor who couldn't get back on his boat due to health and we put a rigid step on one side of his main beam that folded up onto the tramp when not in use. When needed he just flipped it over and it used the main beam as it's backstay.


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241259
12/14/11 08:54 AM
12/14/11 08:54 AM
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Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline OP
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Yes Jeff, had I better known three years ago, when I was designing and building my cat, what I know now.
I wouldn't have given the hulls near the front beam a freeboard of 60 cm and/or I should certainly have invented some kind of foldable something on the beam or hull.

I could not foresee that moment that my shoulders start so soon detoriating so much!
To adapt this now, is a lot of more work, but maybe it should finally come to that kind of solutions.

I'm still pondering about more sturdy looking solutions. There is ofcourse some mental barrier to take.



So far I learned for the solution to be:

-simple and strong and water-fixed for incoming waves round the cat

-it has to made ready within seconds after climbing on the hull in the water and before the start of the uprighting.

-after the uprighting it has to function also for keeping the cat stabilized in big waves.

-also it has to function as a grabbing facility for avoiding the cat to sweep through after the initial uprighting.

Looking in the past I expect to use it only max once a year, but when I use it, it has to function! Still choosing a difficult but 100% working system doesn't win it for a simple 70% working system.
I think.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241263
12/14/11 09:15 AM
12/14/11 09:15 AM
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Portland, Maine
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On the bottom of our trampolines - we've always stitched in webbing straps 12" from the tramp edge on each side. It makes getting up on the hull much easier - although if you're tired, its still a chore.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241561
12/18/11 08:38 AM
12/18/11 08:38 AM
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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"Even via the outside windwardsite is under those conditions very risky for loosing contact with my cat. And also there is the danger that I get trapped in my open net tramp with the trapezehook down."- NSJ

You deserve alot of respect, sailing your boat the way you do, in the coditions you do, etc.- I watched some of your vids you posted.

There have been many threads over the years, and a lengthy one I remember after one of the Tornado sailors drown years ago.
Anyway,
with your mesh tramp, as you well know, using a standard hook or your trap is a catastrophe waiting to happen.
Granted, any line (we all use such small lines these days) could get wrapped around a hook anywhere, at anytime.
One of my sloutions is wearing a sit type harness that doesn't go over my head, and release it in an emergency in this situation of a hook fouled/caught of something I couldn't get free of. HOwever, I realize that this may not even be the case in some hypothetical situations.

Threads like this are great, and we all learn from them- carry on


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241592
12/19/11 09:31 AM
12/19/11 09:31 AM
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Santiago, Chile
Andinista Offline
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Some harnesses (probably for kite or windsurf) include a knife for that, I carry a swiss army knife tied to my shorts. I doubt it will be easy to use but it's better than nothing. The hook is not the only risk, as an example, I know of somebody that got trapped on a capsized Laser with the tiller inside his PFD.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: Andinista] #241676
12/19/11 07:26 PM
12/19/11 07:26 PM
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Posts: 162
Dunedin Causeway, FL
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Originally Posted by Andinista
I know of somebody that got trapped on a capsized Laser with the tiller inside his PFD.

For that you wear a rash guard over the top of your PFD and harness. You do look like the Michelin Man, but you eliminate all loose ends and orifices that can tangle you up.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241717
12/20/11 12:26 PM
12/20/11 12:26 PM
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France
pepin Offline
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My Magic Marine harness came with a safety knife tucked in a pouch hold in place by a piece of velcro, easily accessible. It is a very nice tool with no sharp edges but still capable of cutting all lines and straps on board.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241766
12/21/11 12:03 PM
12/21/11 12:03 PM
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Petten Netherlands
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My Magic Marine Revolution (which I advice everybody who has backproblems) has the same safety knife described above.

But this spring, when I was trapped with my trapeze hook in my trampnet, it wasn't a big help. Somehow I couldn't reach for it.

With regard to the trapeze hook, I always wondered why the cat scene did not switch to triangle formed hooks like we did in the windsurf scene.
I can still remember me the day, about 30 years ago, that I was trapped with my single trapeze hook under my windsurfsail. I had imitated this hook on a piece of wood, looking at a obscure picture taken in Hawaii. Trapezes where just invented and not for sale in Holland. Until this triangle hooks came on the market, I always surfed with a knife attached to my suit.

This triangle principle by the way leads the trapeze rope always to the smaller end, so it can be freed easely when tangled around the hook. Nowadays the trapeze ropes are also changed by ropes with a rather stiff tube around, so they tangle less.

This summer I got trapped again under water with my windsurf trapeze when my sail washed over a fixed thight swimming line for the coast, while my board and me were washed underneath. Still it took me almost a minute to free myself, holding breath.

So hooks and lines never go well together and are always a potential danger.

With that in mind, I'm now trying to fabricate a keyhole system for my Revolution cat trapeze. Based on a flat plate.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 12/21/11 12:04 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241768
12/21/11 03:06 PM
12/21/11 03:06 PM
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Daytona Beach Florida
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Daytona Beach Florida
Several manufacturers have harness crossbars where you can pull a tab and disconnect the hook from the harness. yes you may lose the hook but better than a knife to the tramp.

Re: In problems after capsizing in big waves [Re: northsea junkie] #241770
12/21/11 04:05 PM
12/21/11 04:05 PM
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Petten Netherlands
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Yes, I know the systems. But everything which I had in hand, seemed for me too weak, too fluky, too insecure.
The hook itself (because of the system) always has a little movement in its attachment. Gives me a very uncomfortable feeling when hanging out.

In brief, I don't trust them.

Looking at the kitesurf scene where they have a lot of experience with emergency releases, they only use release-systems in the ropes themselves. And even that is not always 100% working when needed.

Maybe someone has better experience, please convince me.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
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