Related to my post about needing a new tramp, I just have to vent a little bit.

I think it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of in my life that there's such a thing as a class legal tramp. Could someone please explain this logic to me?????!!!!

It makes about as much sense as declaring that there will be a class legal bolt or shackle.

Everyone in the world of one design gets on their high horse about how this "helps make sailing affordable for everyone," but that is just utter BS.

How does that make it affordable when a new trampoline for the various Hobies ranges in price from 400 to 650 bucks, while the aftermarket equivalents, which in some cases are probably made better are half that cost??

I could go have Aquarius Sail or Salty Dog build me a tramp that would probably be better, for less money, and then some shmuck could protest me, or the sailor of my boat for not being class legal.

Working on restraining the "arms race" is one thing, but this is just ridiculous.

My vent for the evening.............



Tim J.

Tim,

The Nacra rules are the same. I sort of agree (sitting on the fence a little) with that though. If not trampolines, where do you stop? Sails? OK, the tramp is not a big performance ticket but it can add to boat stiffness if it's really tight (not to consider the warrantee and market reliability perception if everyone started buying supper tight trampolines and breaking boats). However, Nacra does seem to keep their pricing more in line with the one-off market. I just installed my new trampoline this weekend and according to the Nacra pricing guide (I haven't gotten the final bill yet) my new tramp for my 6.0 was around $350 from the factory. That's about $20 more than I can get an aftermarket one for and not too bad IMO. That Hobie price does sound VERY high.

Actually, I checked again and the Nacra trampoline is $20 CHEAPER than the aftermarket trapolines I found online.

Jake,

Come on, you're not really sitting on the fence on this one are you???

I'm almost speechless, this issue is so stupid. Maybe with a Hobie 16, you'd have an argument, but even there, people are doing all kinds of things to make their boats stiffer. I know of several people who have epoxied those boats together to make them stiff.

Even the sail thing is stupid. Make them measure in to a certain sail plan tolerance, and call it good. I think the formula idea is by far the best thing to hit the world of sailing in a long time. It's finally something that appears to be reasonable.

The other hilarious thing about the tramps (and the sails, for that matter), if I recall correctly, is that Hobie used to out source most of that stuff.

My first Hobie 20 sails were made by Elliot Pattison, and the tramp was probably made by someone like Salty Dog Marine in Michigan. Now, if I wanted to have Salty Dog build me the same frigging tramp, I couldn't do it! If I wanted to have Elliot Pattison build the sail I couldn't do it.

Yet compare a set of 1995 sails to year 2000 sails, and the shape isn't even close!!!

I like one design racing. I hate the idea of needing a calculator to determine by how much I got my butt kicked, or by how much I kicked someone elses butt. It should be as obvious as when we each crossed the finish line.

That being said, however, some of the rules that NAHCA puts out for Hobie Cat racing must have been developed in a vacuum, and I would appreciate if someone within NAHCA could place this into some sort of perspective that makes sense.

Oh, and getting back to tramp materials. If one wants to play devil's advocate, when did it become ok to switch from vinyl to mesh??? Surely the newer Hobie 16s and 18s with mesh have an advantage??? I doubt it. Was NAHCA consulted when that change was made?

Enough rant. Dumb, dumb, stupid, stupid, dumb, dumb, stupid!

Tim J.

Dang Tim...I'm buying the beer next time I'm up that way.

Check the Inter class rules....number of grommets is a regulated quantity.

I'm always thirsty! Let's make it a Summit, and support the local economy!

Tim J.

>>>Check the Inter class rules....number of grommets is a regulated quantity.


So ? By the same measure these class rules are "significantly uneducated and unreasonable" too

Who on this forum actually thinks that having say 11 grommets instead of 9 grommet will make you faster ?

Just learn to sail well !

Wouter

I got severely bagged on an Aussie Sailing Forum when I suggested that you should be able to get anyone to make sails for your Hobies and Nacros as long as they measured. Mind you the biggest bagging I got was from a Hobie dealer (Hi Mal).

This ludicrous situation is one of the reasons I sail a Taipan. Any sail maker, any block maker, any tramp maker, any foil maker,you can even build your own boat - as long as they measure they are class legal.

Rob
Timber homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS175.
For more info about Taipans see:
www.taipan.asn.au

Tim, (hey!)

Is this similar to the auto industry financial situation? Perhaps these manufacturers need the sales from the replacement parts to remain viable concerns. One design rules give them a relative certain prospect of future sales on every boat they can manage to sell. From abusiness perspective this is sensible and I can see the logic. The part that frosts my butt is the disparity in prices between Hobie and other vendors. Perhaps Hobie is carrying too much overhead, or is a "top heavy" company.

Silly rules like that is one of the reasons I own a Tornado now.

This is where the difference between a "one manufacturer" class and a "one design" class become apparent. The beauty of a one design class like the Tornado and Taipan is that if one builder (boats,sails,tramps etc) goes off the rails a bit with quality or price there are plenty of others to choose from. this keeps the quality high and the prices reasonable. with one manufacturer classes you are effectivly held to ransom, and there are no market forces in place to regulate the quality or price.

Certainly appears to be a problem with the Hobie pricing. We just need another manufacturer to provide as much support as Hobie does.

Wasn't there an issue at the last Olympics about an "illegal" Tornado tramp? Something about the mesh so open that the wind went right through it and lowered the possibility of capsize while flying a hull. What was the story on that? Where can I get some of that material?

Check out this place. http://www.multihullnets.com/warrant/warrant.htm

The T tramp from the sydney games was more of a diversion than a serious attempt, the bloody thing was twice as heavy as the normal mesh tramp and was as slippery as ice, looked cool though. Plus the efforts the rest of the fleet went to to ban the new tramp was a great way to distract them from on the water training

In order to realize the beauty of one-design racing, I think you have to get involved in some open class racing or PRF racing, where people are forced to always spend money in upgrading equipment because of the hottest thing on the market. I've done all three (one-design, open class, and Portsmouth on monohulls and cats) and the simplest and truest is one-design; it's just skills on the course (assuming you know how to tune the boat).

I know it doesn't make sense, but look at what the F18s are going through now trying to get the best spinnaker launcher.

I know the price of Hobie tramps are unusually high, and we have had a few people in our fleet buy the after-market replacements to save $100, but if they decide to sell the boat to someone who's interested in racing, they'll probably lose that money they saved in the resale value.

Just a thought.

Wyatt

You've missed the point. The arms race still exists in Hobie's version of one design, becuase everyone knows that it doesn't stay the same. Just ask any Hobie 16 or 18 sailor what years to seek out or avoid according to the weight of the boat. Ask a Hobie 20 sailor how the sails have differed greatly in cut over the years from '92 until now. Ask Rick how much the luffs of the Hobie Wave have varied.

It's a great theory (a theory I can agree with), but it's just not reality in this case.

Tim

One design is good idea, but it just dosn't happen.

Here in Switzerland some folks sail firstclass 8 (one design), a monohull.

At the last german championships the teams coming over from France had to carry lead, while the boat of my friend was carrying 400 kg overweight, with no stuff inside.
The overweight came from storing the boat in the water (we guessed). The teams with a higher budget lifted there boats out of the water an stored them in a heated place.
Also the builder changed the **** layout of the new boats.

An other example, a friend of mine, was competing at this years european championship of topper boss (Skiff like 49er)at the lake of garda. He was sailing a older boat, but the new boats were completly different. they changed the gennackersize and shape (lufflength), gib size and had a taller mast. All one design ...
At least the wind was high enuogh, so the lack of sail area didn't matter that much.

good sailing
Andi

[quote
You've missed the point. ][/quote]

No Tim, he didn't miss the point... I think he was right on. The "arms race" is a ligitamate argument in favor of Hobie Cat racing, not against. Regardless of who I work for... my opinion is that the formula that Hobie Alter devised is what has made Hobie Cat racing what it was... and is. Geez have some respect for the Guy. You can debate this issue till you are blue in the face... fact is... Hobie Alter had it right the first time around. Now there are too many cooks in the kitchen and they are going to spoil the soup unless we try and keep to the original thinking!

Now on the original question... The cost of the Hobie 20 trampoline has already been artificially lowered, because I felt it was too high as well. I will have to review in the morning, but I know I have looked at this many times before. Our cost of manufacture is based on labor hours in a product and overhead. The Hobie 20 trampoline is a perfect net fit from side to side, is not square like all of the others. It has a ton of labor in it. We have a dealer network. They are the reason we are still here and the reason you are able to buy a boat and even race a Hobie event. We do not sell direct as other builders do, so it is very difficult to compete with a company like Sunrise who sells direct.

I remember during the last (final?) Worrell that at least one team had something like 18 grommets in excess of this Inter class rule. They had used these grommets to get extra tension on their trampoline and were told, mid-race, to quickly fix it before the next leg in order to comply with the rule. That much tension could potentially mess a boat up.

Yes, you're right, and I appreciate your reply to this thread. I just think we need get sensible on which parts of the boat are part of that arms race. We've already agreed that you can buy standing rigging, blocks, sheets, etc., from whomever you want, and maybe the tramp is worth discussing, maybe not.

I also can appreciate what you mentioned about the dimensions of the tramp. I had forgotten that, and can imagine that it would add a lot of labor. It still makes my pocketbook say ouch, though!

If only I could buy it from Sunrise and still be a law abiding citizen!

Tim