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Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #243838
02/10/12 11:45 AM
02/10/12 11:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Kennethsf Offline
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Kennethsf  Offline
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Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Three fleets for different skill levels and plenty of beer.


You know... this is is just an asinine and ignorant statement.
You demonstrate a fundamental lack of respect towards the sailors in other classes.

Do you really think that the Hobie 16 sailors are less accomplished then the F18 sailors or F16 sailors.

At the very least... I would take the seamanship skills of someone racing a Hobie 16 for 30 years over the seamanship of a new sailor with an F18!

This attitude is not unique to you...
If you don't respect your competitors... you don't need to show up and play. (gee... is turnout a problem in your part of the world???)
So... whether it's a one design regatta where most of the sailors are the back of the fleet, a local handicap regatta with Hobie 16's to Nacra F20cs, or the Area US Sailing championship qualifiers.... when you don't respect ALL of the competitors in the game... there is not much reason to spend your time and money.

Fact of life... good sailors are good sailors... they race in all different classes... disrespecting them (Three fleets for different skill levels) diminishes the racing community.


Easy there sparky,

In Pete's defense, I think he was saying that the H16 has three different fleet "levels", such as gold silver bronze, A, B, C, etc... for differing skill levels amongst the overall fleet.

I don't think he was saying that H16 sailors suck. I don't think anyone on this board would think that.


it,s not the sailors that suck.........(sorry H16 fans. to easy)

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Kennethsf] #243840
02/10/12 11:53 AM
02/10/12 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Kennethsf


it,s not the sailors that suck.........(sorry H16 fans. to easy)


Don't be hatin because you've been schooled while sailing one. It is a poor carpenter who blames his tools.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243842
02/10/12 11:56 AM
02/10/12 11:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Imo, the "C", "B", and "A" fleets made Hobie a household word. A brilliant bit of marketing. The beer didn't hurt either.

Last edited by pgp; 02/10/12 11:57 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Wouter] #243844
02/10/12 12:12 PM
02/10/12 12:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by Wouter

Mind you, all the large ocean going (French) tri's use assymmetrical (curved) foils. Many like to point at those as proof of feasibility.


Quote

Hydrofoils don't make a boat faster, they make a fast boat more seaworthy.
Tom Speers



Luiz
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243845
02/10/12 12:24 PM
02/10/12 12:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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uk
Just mention the H16 and someone somewhere starts beating a shield!

Now get back to daggerboard wars... it was really stimulating zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Luiz] #243846
02/10/12 12:26 PM
02/10/12 12:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Well, I would admit that foiling made the moths faster boats.



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: David Ingram] #243847
02/10/12 01:09 PM
02/10/12 01:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Don't be hatin because you've been schooled while sailing one. It is a poor carpenter who blames his tools.


HEY! Don't knock it till you try it. I've been doing it for years.

I would also like to add its the poor carpenter who can't afford decent tools. getting my coat....


I'm boatless.
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: samc99us] #243853
02/10/12 01:35 PM
02/10/12 01:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by samc99us
Boards are made in a mold. Mold cost is easily $10k per half, probably more. As the boards get longer and/or curved, you need more materials to get the strength up. It also takes longer to build the board. I'd estimate $300 in materials and $900 in labor to build a curved F20c board. The rest of the money is covering R&D, mold cost, and warranty.


And you need four mold halves where-as a port and starboard straight boards can be made from the same two mold halves.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Karl_Brogger] #243856
02/10/12 01:44 PM
02/10/12 01:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Don't be hatin because you've been schooled while sailing one. It is a poor carpenter who blames his tools.


HEY! Don't knock it till you try it. I've been doing it for years.

I would also like to add its the poor carpenter who can't afford decent tools. getting my coat....


This is the funny part: "Come on out anyway and bring the boat, I have a feeling there might be some consolidation going on tomorrow. Based on the forecast it looks like a H16 will be the weapon of choice."

The boat is STILL a winner in the right conditions.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pgp] #243862
02/10/12 02:22 PM
02/10/12 02:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

The boat is STILL a winner in the right conditions.


Yeah, and a loser in most other conditions

Can we please get beyond the H16 now ?

It isn't the Nacra 17 thread for nothing.

wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243864
02/10/12 02:46 PM
02/10/12 02:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Posts: 5,525
Woot, you're bashing my first love. Shame on you.

But yes, back to the N17 by all means.

Last edited by pgp; 02/10/12 02:46 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Wouter] #243866
02/10/12 02:51 PM
02/10/12 02:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
addict
sail7seas  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
I would buy a Hobie 16 Tatoo, over a H-16 w/spin. (assuming similar price range)
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=234040#Post234040
-
http://www.hobie-cat.net/hobie-cat/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=414%3Ahobietatoo-uk&catid=79%3Acatamarans&Itemid=576&lang=en
-

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Jake] #243867
02/10/12 03:08 PM
02/10/12 03:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by samc99us
Boards are made in a mold. Mold cost is easily $10k per half, probably more. As the boards get longer and/or curved, you need more materials to get the strength up. It also takes longer to build the board. I'd estimate $300 in materials and $900 in labor to build a curved F20c board. The rest of the money is covering R&D, mold cost, and warranty.


And you need four mold halves where-as a port and starboard straight boards can be made from the same two mold halves.


You only need 2 mold halves. If you have a tapered tip you make the mold that much longer, put the tip on both ends , and cut off the "top" of opposing boards.Even works for asym. 1 mold/ 2 halves. If you're doing some kind of weird variable twist/ curve then you might need 4 halves.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #243869
02/10/12 03:16 PM
02/10/12 03:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by samc99us
Boards are made in a mold. Mold cost is easily $10k per half, probably more. As the boards get longer and/or curved, you need more materials to get the strength up. It also takes longer to build the board. I'd estimate $300 in materials and $900 in labor to build a curved F20c board. The rest of the money is covering R&D, mold cost, and warranty.


And you need four mold halves where-as a port and starboard straight boards can be made from the same two mold halves.


You only need 2 mold halves. If you have a tapered tip you make the mold that much longer, put the tip on both ends , and cut off the "top" of opposing boards.Even works for asym. 1 mold/ 2 halves. If you're doing some kind of weird variable twist/ curve then you might need 4 halves.


hmmmm...right you are.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243870
02/10/12 03:52 PM
02/10/12 03:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
old hand
mikekrantz  Offline
old hand

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Posts: 712
For the F20c, there is a definite "twist" to the boards. It's not a straight curve...

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: mikekrantz] #243872
02/10/12 04:37 PM
02/10/12 04:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
For the F20c, there is a definite "twist" to the boards. It's not a straight curve...



Intentional? grin


I'm boatless.
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243873
02/10/12 05:09 PM
02/10/12 05:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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T

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Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Yes its definitely intentional.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: mikekrantz] #243874
02/10/12 05:14 PM
02/10/12 05:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
For the F20c, there is a definite "twist" to the boards. It's not a straight curve...


That's why I mentioned it. Somebody was trying that on an A also.
I also have a set of "curved" Nacra/Inter 20 boards that were most likely the result of a sailbox autoclave.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: mikekrantz] #243879
02/10/12 08:39 PM
02/10/12 08:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
For the F20c, there is a definite "twist" to the boards. It's not a straight curve...



Not all curved foils were born equal.

Symetrical section curved foils with different angles of incidence along their span on the F20C, compared to asymetrical section curved foils with fixed angle of incidence along their span on the french maxitris.

It will take a while to fine tune curved foils in cats. And never forget the "S" foils that were barely tested.


Luiz
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Luiz] #243905
02/11/12 07:35 PM
02/11/12 07:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
For the F20c, there is a definite "twist" to the boards. It's not a straight curve...



Not all curved foils were born equal.

Symetrical section curved foils with different angles of incidence along their span on the F20C, compared to asymetrical section curved foils with fixed angle of incidence along their span on the french maxitris.

It will take a while to fine tune curved foils in cats. And never forget the "S" foils that were barely tested.


Source? Some say the foil is symmetric, some say asymmetric on the F20c. What is on the new F17?

You can get by with 2 mold halves if twist is 0. Otherwise, forget about it. Doubt they are doing that in a production environment anyway, I am sure there are 4 mold halves at an easy $40k for the set.

If you have twist, which is one method of getting elliptical lift distribution, things get complicated really fast. For starters, simply modelling the foil in CAD becomes a nightmare-try 100+ hours of CAD work for the plug and then another 40 or so hours for the molds themselves.

I also realized the broken Nacra foils I own have Rohacell or similar high density foam cores. If the curved boards are similar, you would need to machine this core prior to putting it in the molds. That's probably $200 worth of machine time per core if you own the machine.

One way to look at this is by cost, and surely a foil that costs 30% more isn't going to make your boat 30% faster, hence its not worth it. IMO, $1300 is already a lot of money for a daggerboard, why not just pay the extra $400/board for a curved foil? Its a 3% increase in cost on a brand new F18, for example.

Last edited by samc99us; 02/11/12 07:39 PM.

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