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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244228
02/17/12 11:00 AM
02/17/12 11:00 AM
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pgp Offline
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That's undoable. How many of those regattas do you have the time and money to attend?


Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: pgp] #244229
02/17/12 11:05 AM
02/17/12 11:05 AM
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Naples, FL
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remember, these are the championship caliber competitors, not us hacks who might get a wild card entry.

A lot of these guys travel a boatload already in their respective classes, so I don't think this would take that much more effort on their part.

It would, however, take a great deal of extra work on the organizer's side, which is why it might be more feasable to make the championship a bi-annual event.

But think of the notariety to the winner- you would practially eliminate the "Yeah, but..." argument from some guy in a different boat size/type. They were the best on a bunch of different boats. You'd have a good supply of slightly used boats of different sizes.

Heck, maybe some of these championships could be run concurrently with the NAs?


Jay

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244230
02/17/12 11:16 AM
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pgp Offline
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smile


Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: GISCO] #244234
02/17/12 11:36 AM
02/17/12 11:36 AM
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Bob_Curry Offline
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Hmmmmm….. thank you Gordon for putting this all back into perspective.

If the goal is to have a “prestigious” US Sailing Multihull event, run it exactly like the qualifiers by using the US Sailing P/N. And, only include the area champions; no others. The idea is to not water down the event with petitions. Make the sailors yearning to become area champions and Alter Cup champions earn the spot. Have the buy-in from the established classes on a date that does not interfere with other national or North American championships. You could make it the second week in the same month each year and have a 3 day regatta utilizing a federal holiday to offset travel commitments.

Example. Area D South is run under the current p/n tables and won by an A cat (current format). That skipper goes to the big show with his boat. Area D North is run under the same tables and is won by a 2-up F16. That crew takes their boat and goes to the show. Etc, etc until all the area championships are held. In the event an area does not have a championship, the Area rep petitions his constituents for their slot. If none step up, then they are not represented in the show.

Compliance. At the area championships and the big race, all boats must be class legal for their assigned number. An A cat must produce the certificates (both boat and sail) for the event conforming to class rules. An F16 and F18 must do the same with no exceptions. Any boat requiring a measured certificate in the class rules must produce the forms or simply not race. All other class boat compliance is left up to the owners and competitors to enforce. All sailors must be US Sailing members at the area championship and Alter Cup.
This event format will be easy to administer using current scoring software. And as others have pointed out, economics simply cannot support 10 or more brand new boats and support personnel anymore.

Let’s talk costs. No more charter fees or damage deposits. Everyone is required to have ample insurance. Hopefully the registration fee is not astronomical. All of a sudden your regatta costs are affordable again. Logistics for the hosting club should be no more burdensome than a 3 day weekend regatta. Another cost saving measure is to have the hosting yacht club open it’s membership doors for sailor housing. It has worked in the past. Yes, you still have to get there but you still have to get there!

Trophies. Besides having the 3 medals and the winners name(s) engraved on the beautiful trophy, the winner(s) get to proudly wear either a collared polo or some type of clothing stating they are the 20XX US Sailing Multihull Champions.
Class champions: You have your nationals or North Americans each year. This is THE ALTER CUP!

This will work and everybody at the big race gets to race every race. The 2013 Alter Cup can happen next year! Realistically, 2012 is gone with all the schedules already in place.

Bob Curry, THE 1994 Alter Cup Champion
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: Bob_Curry] #244239
02/17/12 12:28 PM
02/17/12 12:28 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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I have also proposed (SA) an option that is a One Design championship in one of three disciplines (single handed, double handed sloop, double handed spin) 10 charter boats are available from a builder. The championship is fed by One design Qualifiers. The qualifiers are one design racing held in the dominant one design class in the area (and that class should try to make a charter ($$$)available to a sailor who would like to compete in the qualifier. )

EG. the championship rotation is double handed sloop in 2013. The manufacturer is Nacra, They offer to provide 10 new F16's. The championship will be held on Nacra F16's without spin. Area C would hold a qualifier in double handed sloop. The Hobie 16 turnout is greater then the Hobie 18 turnout in Area C. Area C picks a Hobie 16 regatta for the qualifier (and they should attempt to make a Hobie 16 charter $$$ available to the Hobie 18 class and any other interested and qualified sailors). The winner of the Area Championships is able to race the championship.

FYI, a frequent complaint from sailors in Area C is about the rotation aspect of the championship.... They say... if they are taking a week to go racing... they want to race full time or it's not worth the time and money to compete.

The downside is that the cost for a full charter doubles. How much are you willing to pay....




Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/17/12 12:30 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #244240
02/17/12 12:31 PM
02/17/12 12:31 PM
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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Sure, it's a long shot but maybe Nacra would make 10 Nacra 17s for the Alter Cup, just to prove to the OC that they could produce 50 if called up to serve the OOOOO.

I'm holding my breath until they do.....

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: John Williams] #244244
02/17/12 12:58 PM
02/17/12 12:58 PM
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brucat Offline OP
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A little peek behind the curtain:

The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.

So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.

Mike

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244245
02/17/12 01:01 PM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
A little peek behind the curtain:

The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.

So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.

Mike


Would you care to expand on that? All I know about USS championships is what I've observed at Alter Cup.


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244246
02/17/12 01:04 PM
02/17/12 01:04 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
A little peek behind the curtain:

The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.

So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.

Mike


$1000 isn't enough for them, it's not like it costs them anything! The relevance argument is bogus.

Screw what the sailors want! US Sailing is consistent I'll give them that.


David Ingram
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244249
02/17/12 01:10 PM
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brucat Offline OP
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Actually, it has nothing to do with money, and nothing to do with Rolex.

Attendance and interest in the events has been reportedly declining. You can dig around on the US Sailing website and look for results of other events to back that up.

For our event, this is the stated goal for Shannon and Liz:

Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.

The question of whether that can be done with a 10-boat platform is a large part of the equation.

Mike

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244250
02/17/12 01:13 PM
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pgp Offline
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So what format does USS want to see? Surely the have an idea of what is acceptable.


Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244251
02/17/12 01:23 PM
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brucat Offline OP
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That would be cart before horse. They really want to meet the stated goal, and do not have a specific format requirement to get there. They are asking for input from the sailors, as they know that we are the ones who will attend and promote the event.

They want to see more youth, and more participation overall. My sense is that if this event were busting at the seams with hugely-attended qualifiers, and youth coming through the qualification process (without having to be hunted down and invited), we would have a better case that change isn't needed.

Mike

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244253
02/17/12 01:38 PM
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pgp Offline
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I'm still lost: what stated goal?


Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244254
02/17/12 02:15 PM
02/17/12 02:15 PM
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John Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
For our event, this is the stated goal for Shannon and Liz:

Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.


There you go, Pete - Mike posted it above. Keep in mind that this is new, and past events should not be judged against this goal. This is also a goal established by US Sailing, not by multihull sailors who have administered or participated in past events. Not trying to say anything other than providing context.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244256
02/17/12 02:27 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote

Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.


Wow...a completely different frame for a strategic vision of the sport and this event.

Contrast that with Jake's
"I believe the event should strive to be the premier multihull championship from which the best multihull sailors within the US are determined. I don't believe a handicap BYOB event is very elite."

Or Mark's
I believe that the US Championship should be a member benefit and promote the whole sport by running a National handicap championship fed by qualifiers from USSA areas.

Relevant Regatta... not premier Regatta or membership benefit Regatta. Yikes!

new and upcoming sailors.... not elite sailors or Area XX sailors... Yikes!

Olympic sailors..... not quite Best Sailor or USSA members.... Yikes!

I am guessing that giving a petition slot at the championships to the youth mutlihull team is not good enough.

This is the second time that US Sailing is holding us up to our professed interest in Olympic Multihull racing. (They noticed our screaming about the Olympic fiasco)

The MHC had an ad hoc meeting with the ISAF co chair of the technical committee for the mixed multihull selection committee... Dina made it clear that US Sailing expected the multihull sailors and the OD classes to get behind and support the new discipline. The discussion that followed with the One Design representatives in attendance was .... "frank"

Yikes!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244257
02/17/12 02:31 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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Firstly: Let us award Mike, Shannon Bush, Liz Walker, and Jack Geirhart a ton of THANK YOUs for their tireless hours of effort and 'brain strain' in hopes of demonstrating a 'base - up' stlye of Leadership for the catamaran sailors across the Nation. In that regard, I not only say "Congratulations are in order" for them, but I wish to share with this audience something I learned during my journies to Hawai'i that serves as a fine analogy for this pivotal moment in our history.

"Lokahi is mind, body, and soul. To just strengthen your physical self is not enough. To strengthen yourself mentally is not enough. To strengthen yourself spiritually is not enough. To strengthen yourself physically, mentally, and spiritually is Lokahi." Buffalo Keaulana

This philosophy supports the "Ohana," the family. The Hawai'ian culture is based on self - reliance, love, and respect for others in their 'family' Ohana.

May we work together to write this new chapter for multihull sailing in our Free Nation, the United States of America.

Bert Rice, Multihull Championship Committee Chair

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: John Williams] #244258
02/17/12 02:36 PM
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pgp Offline
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Thanks John. This is a USS mandate? Bona fide, ratified and all that good stuff? If so, I like it.

The problem is the emotional investment of those, like yourself, who are committed to the old approach. You did a good job, thank you. Were you invited to participate in crafting a new approach?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244259
02/17/12 02:42 PM
02/17/12 02:42 PM
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John Williams Offline
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Pete, my past involvement (or anyone else's) is not relevant, and certainly should not be viewed as a "problem" for those now taking on the task of moving forward.

Thanks for the thanks, but I haven't been chair in a long time - since me, there's been Jake, Kevin, Dave and now Bert.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244260
02/17/12 02:46 PM
02/17/12 02:46 PM
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pgp Offline
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Customarily you thank a board for its service before empaneling a new one.

You guys invested a lot of emotion into the task, that alone is worth recognition.

Failing to do that starts the new committee of on the wrong foot, imo.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: catandahalf] #244261
02/17/12 02:51 PM
02/17/12 02:51 PM
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Jake Offline
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I appreciate anyone in this role trying to make a difference and I support them wholly. I'll continue to make an effort to qualify for the event when it's reasonable with everything else I've got going on - regardless of the format (at first, anyway! ;-).

Is the new direction really in-line with the other US Sailing championships?

I'm a little unclear on the boat directive...manufacture supplied 10 boats (11 with spare) is very difficult to obtain...20 probably is sustainable...or is this in reference to sail what'cha brung?


Jake Kohl
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