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Re: Just for the record [Re: mbounds] #244506
02/22/12 12:16 PM
02/22/12 12:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
daniel_t Offline
enthusiast
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Palm Harbor, FL
Originally Posted by mbounds
There has been talk of a rating system for race officials, but nobody's been able to figure out a way to not make it a popularity contest. Race Officials are asked to make difficult decisions that may not be popular at the time they are made. Have you ever known the person who lost a protest to be happy with the decision?


It seems simple to me. Both sides in a protest should be required to report on whether they think the ruling was fair/unbiased. A secret survey that is filled out after the ruling should be fine. The expected objection to this sort of idea is that everybody who wins a ruling will say the judge was "very fair" while everybody who looses will say "very unfair." Personally, I don't think that would be the case for every ruling in every situation. I suspect that some judges will be able to make a ruling and explain it convincingly enough that the looser will rate the judge higher. The upshot is that not every judge will have a 50% rating and a judge with a 55 or 60% rating would be highly sought after.

People who were not stakeholders in the ruling would not be allowed to rate the judge, that will mitigate the popularity contest aspects.


Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Just for the record [Re: mbounds] #244508
02/22/12 12:44 PM
02/22/12 12:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Thank you Matt.

Not sure I agree with the "it wasn't my fault" so you get a pass reasoning. The bottom line is the PRO is where the buck stops.

As part of the review process I would imagine it would work the same way the BBB reviews complaints. If a complaint is filed it's reviewed, if it's found to be an act of God then so be it. But, if there was a procedural mistake then that needs to be identified and remediated. The issue would then need to be published and what actions have been taken to prevent it in the future. From this your rankings would be created. Yes, you run the risk of it being a popluarlty constest, yes it will be difficult and probably unrewarding to administer. Based on your reply this issue has already been identified as a need and it would be in the interest of US Sailing's memebership to push forward and crack this nut, it's one worth cracking IMO.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Just for the record [Re: mbounds] #244510
02/22/12 12:51 PM
02/22/12 12:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I think it should be as simple as making factual information available about the judges. There are many more times over the number of unreasonable sailors as there are judges who have poor judgement. I wouldn't trust a sailor review process very much. Stick to the numbers. How experienced is this judge?...i.e. How long have they been accredited, how many regattas have they be involved with (it would be nice to be able to gauge the size/significance of the regattas somehow), how many cases have they heard, and specifically - how many rulings have been overturned by a higher process?



Jake Kohl
Re: Just for the record [Re: Jake] #244512
02/22/12 12:59 PM
02/22/12 12:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
I think it should be as simple as making factual information available about the judges. There are many more times over the number of unreasonable sailors as there are judges who have poor judgement. I wouldn't trust a sailor review process very much. Stick to the numbers. How experienced is this judge?...i.e. How long have they been accredited, how many regattas have they be involved with (it would be nice to be able to gauge the size/significance of the regattas somehow), how many cases have they heard, and specifically - how many rulings have been overturned by a higher process?



My vision would be the customer (the sailors) would file the complaint, then a qualified board (peer review board) would review and rule on the complaint, this really applies to Race Officers. For judges this process is already in place (appeal). What is not available as you pointed out is how often an appeal has been filed against a judge's ruling and how many times that judge has been overturned.

I also agree it should be as factual as humanly possible.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Just for the record [Re: pgp] #244513
02/22/12 01:03 PM
02/22/12 01:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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Have any of you considered USS just isn't all that well organized?

If you want to do something to make USS better, it needs that table of organization. Everyone needs to know who is accountable to whom and why. Then when you have a concern it is much simpler to contact the appropriate person.

Is there a paid administrator? Someone whose job is to know who is responsible for what?

Last edited by pgp; 02/22/12 01:04 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Just for the record [Re: David Ingram] #244516
02/22/12 01:16 PM
02/22/12 01:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Quote
My vision would be the customer (the sailors) would file the complaint, then a qualified board (peer review board) would review and rule on the complaint, this really applies to Race Officers.


Dave... that is what your RSA or regional sailing authority is for. Again... in my area... the yacht clubs organize into CBYRA... When a yacht club fubars an event... the sailors complain to the club and to the RSA (CBYRA) The CBYRA then tries to fix the problem ... The RSA's are the volunteer outfits that USSA sanctions.... when this does not satisify... you can always move the issue up to USSA.

So... Why take an issue national when a local or regional solution works. Seems to me that you guys need to work with your RSA more.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Just for the record [Re: pgp] #244517
02/22/12 01:28 PM
02/22/12 01:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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Last edited by pgp; 02/22/12 01:32 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Just for the record [Re: Mark Schneider] #244518
02/22/12 01:31 PM
02/22/12 01:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Again, up here... the Yacht club may have a member who does judging... otherwise the Head Judge will happily discuss your event and assign you a judge. The head judge makes sure that the his crew is up to date and certified. I am not sure why you would need a list... published someplace.



While I was the Area D rep I was charged with selecting the PRO and judge (if I could get one) for the semi-final. I also was responsible for finding a host club for the semi-final, it would be nice if yacht club review info was available. The best I could do was find a list of judges and PRO's that were in my area. There wasn't a resume for me to review so there was no way for me to know what I was getting. Certified all, but I've been around long enough to know that just because you're accredited doesn't mean your compitent. Due to the lack of this information I had to rely on word of mouth basically someone saying "yeah, they are good". Maybe it's a control thing but if I'm going to be held accountable I want to know what I'm getting especially if we're going to be on the hook for some or all of their expenses.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Just for the record [Re: pgp] #244519
02/22/12 01:32 PM
02/22/12 01:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Florida Sailing Association

PO Box 988

(727) 787-2017

D


www.floridasailingassociation.org

Crystal Beach, FL 34681-0988

sbreeves@tampabay.rr.com


Office of Commodore held by Michael Dawson


Office of Rear Commodore held by David Billings


Office of Secretary held by SarahBeth Reeves


Office of US Sailing Contact held by SarahBeth Reeves


Office of Vice Commodore held by Thomas Rinda


The list is here
http://about.ussailing.org/Director...ations/Regional_Sailing_Associations.htm

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/22/12 01:33 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Just for the record [Re: pgp] #244521
02/22/12 01:34 PM
02/22/12 01:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline OP
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Thanks.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Just for the record [Re: Mark Schneider] #244522
02/22/12 01:45 PM
02/22/12 01:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
My vision would be the customer (the sailors) would file the complaint, then a qualified board (peer review board) would review and rule on the complaint, this really applies to Race Officers.


Dave... that is what your RSA or regional sailing authority is for. Again... in my area... the yacht clubs organize into CBYRA... When a yacht club fubars an event... the sailors complain to the club and to the RSA (CBYRA) The CBYRA then tries to fix the problem ... The RSA's are the volunteer outfits that USSA sanctions.... when this does not satisify... you can always move the issue up to USSA.

So... Why take an issue national when a local or regional solution works. Seems to me that you guys need to work with your RSA more.


The info I'm looking for isn't there. Please point me to the link that shows me how many times an appeal has been filed against a judge and how many times it's been upheld or overturned.

Show me a link that provides the statistics about Race Officers.

Isn't the RSA a part of US Sailing? If this isn't something US Sailing should work on... What is it that US Sailing does again?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Just for the record [Re: pgp] #244523
02/22/12 02:00 PM
02/22/12 02:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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brucat  Offline
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B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
If anything can be guaranteed, it's this: Whining about any of this here is not likely to move the ball forward.

Take your mouse, and find the people who can help you, it's really not very hard.

For ROs, here is a list of people to discuss this with: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Race_Officers/Committee/Committee.htm

More RO info here: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Race_Officers/Committee.htm

For judges, try this: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Judges/Committee.htm

Hope this helps.

Mike

Re: Just for the record [Re: David Ingram] #244524
02/22/12 02:01 PM
02/22/12 02:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
While I was the Area D rep I was charged with selecting the PRO and judge (if I could get one) for the semi-final. I also was responsible for finding a host club for the semi-final, it would be nice if yacht club review info was available.


Ah... here we go again... YOU ARE NOT BUYING A STINKING SERVICE!!..

This is a partnership of all of the interested organizations....handled at the local level.

Yes, cats have run their own world for 40 years..(Can you point me to reviews of Cat Sailing Clubs and their performance) Yacht clubs have been doing this work for years as well.. They do this in partnership with the OD fleets and the various clubs in the area.

Even a casual observer of sailboat racing probably knows that St Petersburg YC is one of the most successful YC's in the states at running high quality events... Having trained national level PRO's and judges... they have a large amount of experience. Hell, they even wrote their own one design scoring program (St Petes scorer)...

THe F18 board says that they did a great job last weekend for the F18's and they want to host another event in December. They have also done A cat events in the past ....

Did you guys look up St Petes on the "consumer reports table" before you signed up???

The asinine request that there be a "consumer reports" on PRO's and Judges is more of the same attitude...

I will say it again... You are NOT BUYING A PRO Service or a Judge service. You are supposed to be forming a partnership of volunteers to further the sport.



Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/22/12 02:04 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Just for the record [Re: pgp] #244525
02/22/12 02:19 PM
02/22/12 02:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline
old hand
Bob_Curry  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Just for the record, this is such a stupid thread. crazy


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Just for the record [Re: Mark Schneider] #244529
02/22/12 03:51 PM
02/22/12 03:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Ah... here we go again... YOU ARE NOT BUYING A STINKING SERVICE!!..

This is a partnership of all of the interested organizations....handled at the local level.

Yes, cats have run their own world for 40 years..(Can you point me to reviews of Cat Sailing Clubs and their performance) Yacht clubs have been doing this work for years as well.. They do this in partnership with the OD fleets and the various clubs in the area.

Even a casual observer of sailboat racing probably knows that St Petersburg YC is one of the most successful YC's in the states at running high quality events... Having trained national level PRO's and judges... they have a large amount of experience. Hell, they even wrote their own one design scoring program (St Petes scorer)...

THe F18 board says that they did a great job last weekend for the F18's and they want to host another event in December. They have also done A cat events in the past ....

Did you guys look up St Petes on the "consumer reports table" before you signed up???

The asinine request that there be a "consumer reports" on PRO's and Judges is more of the same attitude...

I will say it again... You are NOT BUYING A PRO Service or a Judge service. You are supposed to be forming a partnership of volunteers to further the sport.




You have done an amazing job showing me the value of US Sailing. I feel like a fool for not renewing my membership, thank you for your patience and time.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Just for the record [Re: David Ingram] #244534
02/22/12 04:42 PM
02/22/12 04:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by David Ingram
The info I'm looking for isn't there. Please point me to the link that shows me how many times an appeal has been filed against a judge and how many times it's been upheld or overturned.

You're confusing entities here, Dave. Judges don't issue decisions - Protest Committees do. Usually there's more than one judge on a protest committee.

When a decision is appealed, it first goes to the Regional Sailing Association Appeals Committee made up of . . . judges (who may be no better than the original protest committee). That decision can be appealed again - to the US Sailing Appeals Committee where it's reviewed by . . judges (a group currently led by Dave Perry and includes Dick Rose). The buck usually stops there.

But along the way, you should know that "Facts Found" in a protest cannot be appealed (RRS 70.1). Decisions of International Juries cannot be appealed (RRS 70.5). Typically events that determine a qualifier to a higher event have very limited appeal rights (specified in the NOR/SIs and must be approved in advance by US Sailing) (RRS 70.5(a)).

How about this Protest Committee scenario - a very domineering Chief Judge overrules one (or more) subordinate judges in the decision and then the decision is overturned on appeal. Should the subordinate judges be penalized for that? (I've seen this happen more than once.)

Like I said, appeals of decisions made by a protest committee of which a judge is but a part are a poor metric of that judge's capability.

Re: Just for the record [Re: mbounds] #244536
02/22/12 06:56 PM
02/22/12 06:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by David Ingram
The info I'm looking for isn't there. Please point me to the link that shows me how many times an appeal has been filed against a judge and how many times it's been upheld or overturned.

You're confusing entities here, Dave. Judges don't issue decisions - Protest Committees do. Usually there's more than one judge on a protest committee.

When a decision is appealed, it first goes to the Regional Sailing Association Appeals Committee made up of . . . judges (who may be no better than the original protest committee). That decision can be appealed again - to the US Sailing Appeals Committee where it's reviewed by . . judges (a group currently led by Dave Perry and includes Dick Rose). The buck usually stops there.

But along the way, you should know that "Facts Found" in a protest cannot be appealed (RRS 70.1). Decisions of International Juries cannot be appealed (RRS 70.5). Typically events that determine a qualifier to a higher event have very limited appeal rights (specified in the NOR/SIs and must be approved in advance by US Sailing) (RRS 70.5(a)).

How about this Protest Committee scenario - a very domineering Chief Judge overrules one (or more) subordinate judges in the decision and then the decision is overturned on appeal. Should the subordinate judges be penalized for that? (I've seen this happen more than once.)

Like I said, appeals of decisions made by a protest committee of which a judge is but a part are a poor metric of that judge's capability.


good point.


Jake Kohl
Re: Just for the record [Re: pgp] #244539
02/22/12 07:19 PM
02/22/12 07:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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ISAF has reports that get filed for major events, and I believe that there has been discussion of doing something similar at US Sailing.

Again, talking to those committees is your best option at this point.

Mike

Re: Just for the record [Re: brucat] #244582
02/23/12 09:22 AM
02/23/12 09:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
Is there a continuing education requirement for judges? Do they re-certify after a certain time period, or if they do not exercise their authority (act as PRO) a minimum number of regattas per term (year, two year, etc)?

The few judges and PROs I've sailed under seemed very qualified, but I've never had to walk into the room...

and would the steeplechase thing be a possible reason why we typically choose to sail under RRS in the first place? Had that not been settled amicably (eventually), I would certainly use that as the poster child for having a universally accepted ruleset and accountability protocol..


Jay

Re: Just for the record [Re: waterbug_wpb] #244601
02/23/12 11:23 AM
02/23/12 11:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Is there a continuing education requirement for judges? Do they re-certify after a certain time period, or if they do not exercise their authority (act as PRO) a minimum number of regattas per term (year, two year, etc)?

Yes. Every judge must re-certify every four years:
- Take the two-day class
- Pass the exam
- Be knowledgeable and experienced in the running of races and have performed in a major role on the water in at least three U.S. events during the last four years
- Be an active member of protest committees. In the last four years,served on protest committees for at least three years and chaired at least three hearings at a regatta of significant importance to the region; served on juries in at least three events in the US at the interclub, regional or national level.

The re-certification process for Race Officers is similar, except that for National Race Officer re-certification, you need to have a personal "on-the-job" review by another NRO or IRO.

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