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Why are F-18's so expensive? #245760
03/19/12 01:20 PM
03/19/12 01:20 PM
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california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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Been shopping for a new F-18. The prices are out of control. So if all the measures in the rules are to keep costs down why are they getting to be the most expensive boat to buy.
Prices have jumped almost $10,000 in 6 years. That is just plain stupid. Now it's almost cheaper to buy a F-20C than an Infusion, C2,Wildcat,Cirrus R, or Phantom.

If they can build a Tornado for $21,000 why can't they build a F-18 for that?


Richard Vilvens
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Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

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-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245761
03/19/12 01:33 PM
03/19/12 01:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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The Tornado price you have is a couple of years old and does not include sails.

There is only one opportunity to buy an F20C for less than a new F18 - that is a used vs new scenario, too.

Yes, prices have gone up - in that period, we have seen all F18 production go overseas, so every purchase price for US sailors is based on some other currency. Until Matt finishes the new Falcon Marine F18, that situation will continue.

In addition, while I appreciate your sticker-shock, please take 15 minutes and price a Melges 24... or even the jib for a FARR 40. We have world-class racing for a fraction of the cost in just about any other class on the planet.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245763
03/19/12 01:47 PM
03/19/12 01:47 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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I've been wondering the same thing. I bought my 2004 Nacra F18 brand new for $12,800 without trailer and now they are almost twice as much. The pricing doesn't seem in scale with the other boats manufacturers build given the volume they are building them.


Jake Kohl
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245764
03/19/12 01:49 PM
03/19/12 01:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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2004 - built in Santa Ana, CA and the money went to Nacra US.
2012 - built overseas, money to Nacra Europe.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245766
03/19/12 01:56 PM
03/19/12 01:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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Quote on a Tornado

15,900.00 EUR = 20,951.01 USD
Yes, its fully rigged and ready to sail out-of-the-box in the new and very strict high quality one design. Its made with Epoxi resin and Airex core.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245768
03/19/12 02:09 PM
03/19/12 02:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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http://www.darrenbundock.com/darrenbundock/4sale.html

Used boat, race ready, $38K USD

Where are you seeing a new boat for $21K USD? My Google isn't finding anything in that neighbourhood.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245769
03/19/12 02:11 PM
03/19/12 02:11 PM
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california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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Rich Vilvens ‎15,900.00 EUR = 20,951.01 USD great price for that boat.

Rich Vilvens Is that fully rigged?

Roland Gaebler Yes, its fully rigged and ready to sail out-of-the-box in the new and very strict high quality one design. Its made with Epoxi resin and Airex core.

They put the price on the boat being used for the olympic selection trials.

Last edited by F-18 5150; 03/19/12 02:13 PM.

Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245771
03/19/12 02:17 PM
03/19/12 02:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Ah. Not quite apples to apples, eh?

How much to your door from Santander? ;-)


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245772
03/19/12 02:23 PM
03/19/12 02:23 PM
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california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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Ok John add a couple grand for tax and shipping it's still cheaper than most F-18's.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245773
03/19/12 02:34 PM
03/19/12 02:34 PM
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Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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The price Rich is quoting is for the Exploder Tornado, and is being used as a selling point to get the class back into the Olympics. The price is quoted here: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2012/02/olympic-trials-interview-with-roland.html The boat comes with one-design sails, which are also price controlled, so I'm sure that helps.

I suspect that part of the reason the price is relatively low for the Tornado is supply and demand. How many Tornados have been sold in the last few years? Have any of the Exploders actually sold at the price given, or is it part of the campaign for the games?

I don't know the answers, and I'm not accusing the Tornado class of anything, but I'm not sure it's a great comparison.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245774
03/19/12 02:38 PM
03/19/12 02:38 PM
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JACKFLASH Offline
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Yea I don't buy it. I understood the Tiger going up as the US dollar inflated compared to the Euro. Than the Wild Cat came out and was up there too. But the Infusion was up there in price along with them well before production moved over seas. Besides, I thought they were being built in China. Isn't labor suppossed to be cheaper over there? Other wise, why move production at all. I think the reallity of it is because they can.
As for the Melges, yes they are expensive little buggers, but it is all really gotten out of hand.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245775
03/19/12 02:38 PM
03/19/12 02:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Rich, I get your angst, but you're still comparing a used boat to a new boat - a boat with no class racing in the US to one with lots - and your budget for tax and shipping is pretty tight. A full container from the EU is running about $600/boat with 8-10 boats. You can risk consolidated freight for about $1,200-1,500 plus whatever you get charged by whoever packs it. Then pay your tax when it clears customs.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just factual. You can change the question and get a different answer, I suppose.

If you're looking for a good, used F18, deals abound! Drop me an email and I'll point you at some killer, unadvertised rigs.

edit - Ah, now I see the Exploder price. I don't know anyone who's bought one, so I have no idea if that is real. Note the massive price difference between the Exploder and the Marstrom.

Last edited by John Williams; 03/19/12 02:41 PM.

John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: JACKFLASH] #245776
03/19/12 02:43 PM
03/19/12 02:43 PM
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Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Hey Collin -

Yep, the labor is cheaper, which means the margin is better at the top-tier, which ain't your local dealer or the sailors.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Jake] #245777
03/19/12 02:43 PM
03/19/12 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
I've been wondering the same thing. I bought my 2004 Nacra F18 brand new for $12,800 without trailer and now they are almost twice as much. The pricing doesn't seem in scale with the other boats manufacturers build given the volume they are building them.


I work in the composites industry. I know that our resin and chemical prices have at least doubled since 2004. The cost of insurance and compliance in the US has been about the same. Every other purchased component , supply etc has gone up also. A double price point boat is not that unrealistic.

Nacra, ahpc, and now Cirrus are all leading the charge to China. No compliance regulations to speak of and cheap labor.

I do not think it is fair to blame currency as the relative rate all across the globe is about the same increase. To believe the class hype that a tight rule set will provide pricing security and/or equal racing is pretty much BS too.
For a long time the Tiger ruled and Hobie was able to more than recover their investment. The success of the class has brought on a huge series of development projects. The Tiger lost at Worlds and just like that we have the Wildcat. The cap while still an almost new design, quickly developed a bad reputation for some of its handling and bam out comes the C2. Nacra had 3 designs come out. Get on any older F18 and a new 1 and the rig development alone makes them almost completely different to sail: constant sail making and rigging evolution. Right now the group all has to tool up new deep daggers. All these things cost money and will continually drive costs of new product. You want to keep costs in line then quit racing.

I spent less than 3K for my first new H16. Now a strict 1 design boat (with relatively speaking zero technology) with all of its development tooling and sales long long ago paid for sells for around 11K.

Like John said: we still have it incredibly good for the relative cost of what we get when buying a cat.

P.S. is that one of the Polish Tís?
I bought a pair of blank carbon mast tubes from Marstom years ago that cost me nearly that much, so I know that price for a new T was not from them.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245778
03/19/12 02:47 PM
03/19/12 02:47 PM
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Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Just a clarification, Nacra boats and the Viper are built in the same factory in Thailand. Not sure about the C2.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245780
03/19/12 03:00 PM
03/19/12 03:00 PM
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B
brucat Offline
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Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?

Sort of like saying why does a Prius cost so much, and being told that a Lexus costs so much more, so it's OK for the Prius to be overpriced.

Apples and oranges.

Having said that, we're all pretty cheap (frugal, whatever), and I personally think they are all way out of line for what you get. Not that I could make them cheaper, I just hate the costs.

Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: JACKFLASH] #245781
03/19/12 03:41 PM
03/19/12 03:41 PM
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Besides, I thought they were being built in China. Isn't labor suppossed to be cheaper over there?


Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


and, your dollar is fu(king worthless.

Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 03/19/12 03:42 PM.

I'm boatless.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245782
03/19/12 03:46 PM
03/19/12 03:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Hey, you want to go faster, cheaper?

Get out of the water! For $4,500 you can buy this kit and build it in your garage.

It's like a Harley...with Wings!

http://simplexaero.com/pops-props-cloudster/

Here's a video of it in flight; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSlX8ZHiN7M



Blade F16
#777
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245783
03/19/12 03:57 PM
03/19/12 03:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,223
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Greed Plain and simple.Supply and demand. All the reasons JDub gave increased the price but not to the point of where we are now and the melges crap is just lip service(he likes to call it a straw man).


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #245784
03/19/12 03:59 PM
03/19/12 03:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.


They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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