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Tacking angle #246075
03/25/12 03:18 PM
03/25/12 03:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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I had a college sailor out on the boat and almost the first thing she asked me was, "what is the tacking angle?" Of course I didn't have a clue and said so.

So what is the tacking angle on F16/F18s? 110? 105? Or any cat for that matter...

Last edited by pgp; 03/25/12 03:19 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246079
03/25/12 05:25 PM
03/25/12 05:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 50
Bay Area, California, US
Nacra5.8NA1386 Offline
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Nacra5.8NA1386  Offline
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Bay Area, California, US
I've heard 70 degrees for A-Cats.
http://www.harken.com/OneDesign/AClass_Cat.php
Not sure about F16/18s.


Nacra 5.8NA "Royal Flush"
Re: Tacking angle [Re: Nacra5.8NA1386] #246080
03/25/12 05:42 PM
03/25/12 05:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by Nacra5.8NA1386
I've heard 70 degrees for A-Cats.
http://www.harken.com/OneDesign/AClass_Cat.php
Not sure about F16/18s.


It's probably closer to 80-90 degrees for most of us. Tacking angle isn't everything though and is hard to compare to monohull world. Speed is king on cats and although we can sail just as high (or higher) than any other monohull while still going faster, we can get to the top of the course more quickly sitting in the 80 to 90 degree range. Speed through the water increases dramatically as we crack off of the wind.

Talk of tacking angle also ignores the effect of speed - apparent wind angle. Because we move faster, our apparent wind angles are much higher and our sails/mast/tuning are tailored to handle this high apparent wind angle. This is ultimately the limit of getting to the top of the course in short order.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246086
03/25/12 06:29 PM
03/25/12 06:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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bacho  Offline
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Greenville SC
The wind chicken on my old hobie 18 set to 90 seemed to be close.

Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246087
03/25/12 06:45 PM
03/25/12 06:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
A rule of thumb for most sailboats is that they tack through 90 degrees. For any given sailboat many different influences affect the actual tacking angle. Some are: water condition - smooth is higher, rough is lower; wind speed - very light is lower, medium is higher, heavy is lower; displacement - heavy is lower, lighter is higher, sail shape - fuller is lower, flatter is higher; boat surfaces - rough is lower smooth is higher; keel or daggerboard length - longer is higher, shorter is lower; cat rigged (main only) is higher, sloop is lower; etc. So using those general guides you can see why the A cat is probably the highest pointing cat design as it incorporates the most influences that give it that advantage. Also you can understand why an F-16 single handed with main only points higher than the same boat with jib and crew. Now go back and tell the college sailor that, upon further review, you have an answer for them.

Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246103
03/26/12 09:16 AM
03/26/12 09:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Santiago, Chile
Andinista Offline
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Santiago, Chile
Get an iphone and a waterproof case. Get iRegatta app and sail to all directions so you register your polar for the current wind speed. If you want to know your optimum tacking angle, look at the VMG polar.
It works if wind direction and speed are fairly constant, which is probably not so common though...

Last edited by Andinista; 03/26/12 09:17 AM.
Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246104
03/26/12 09:18 AM
03/26/12 09:18 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Santiago, Chile
Andinista Offline
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Andinista  Offline
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90 is pretty optimistic for cats in my opinion. (Or I'm doing something wrong...)

Re: Tacking angle [Re: Andinista] #246107
03/26/12 09:56 AM
03/26/12 09:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Andinista
Get an iphone and a waterproof case. Get iRegatta app and sail to all directions so you register your polar for the current wind speed. If you want to know your optimum tacking angle, look at the VMG polar.
It works if wind direction and speed are fairly constant, which is probably not so common though...


Cool app. Pair it with with some Bluetooth waterproof headphones and you've got yourself a fun little training app.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246108
03/26/12 09:57 AM
03/26/12 09:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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And this matters...why? Can we measure it on the water? ie, do we say, "Well, we are only at 87 degrees, we'll have to wait another 3 degrees to tack..."

No, we don't. We tack when we think we can make it, and I have no idea exactly what angle that is. When it looks right, I tack. That's why the guys with the most experience do it better than the newbs, they know what looks right.

It's all well and good on a chalkboard, as this college sailor is probably used to being shown, but in reality, who cares exactly what the angle is?

We don't cary enough electronics (like the AC guys do) to make it a worth while number to know, or measure or present that info to us, on board, so what's the point? When it looks good, tack. If it didn't work, tack again.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246112
03/26/12 10:37 AM
03/26/12 10:37 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
The biggest use for me of knowing the "tacking angle" is when I race in a Pt-to-Pt race ("distance") and am using a compass. This knowledge allows me to quickly calculate which tack (port or starb) is the "favored" tack. Also it is useful to determine if you have a "tide set" effecting your progress

I find that I my tacking angles are between 90*-100* aproximently .... sometimes 110* if I was pounding through some serious wave conditions ... or against a tide. On "flat" water in a steady medium breeze I would sometimes approach 75*-80* ....

But usually I have found you need to be working w/ a compass in order to make use of "tacking angle" knowledge ... and on a catamaran on a short "buoy" type course you don't have the time ... or a compass. (I'm a POOR traditionalist ... no fancy computerized "aids"... no "apps" ... just a hand bearing compass, a stop watch, my eyes ... and my brain/mind for calculations)

Harry Murphey
H18Mag/P19MX

Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246114
03/26/12 11:00 AM
03/26/12 11:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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Everyboby hold up a second. Why is no one calling Pete out for being a week early for April Fools? College chick on his boat... RIIIIIGHT...

Mike

Re: Tacking angle [Re: Timbo] #246117
03/26/12 11:36 AM
03/26/12 11:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
And this matters...why? ...


Because it's what monohull sailors use to compare their boat to others. At 3 knots, 0.5 degrees higher is a big deal.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246123
03/26/12 12:14 PM
03/26/12 12:14 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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Why? Because I'm training them (a guy and a girl) that the forward position is the skill position on an F16. They have to pull all the strings, call the lay lines, pick shifts and tactics; as well as run the clock. I figure if I'm buying lunch I oughta get my money's worth.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tacking angle [Re: Jake] #246124
03/26/12 12:15 PM
03/26/12 12:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
And this matters...why? ...


Because it's what monohull sailors use to compare their boat to others. At 3 knots, 0.5 degrees higher is a big deal.


Crap, Jake. Got Soda in my nose again thanks to that... man it burns..


Jay

Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246125
03/26/12 12:20 PM
03/26/12 12:20 PM
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Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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Just take her out on a windy/wavy day. After you pass the first powerboat, she will forget all about that nonsense...

Mike

Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246126
03/26/12 12:24 PM
03/26/12 12:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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I haven't forgotten how dismal my racing history is! I was hoping to learn from these people. She thinks tacking angle is important, I'm going to find out why.

But... I'm beginning to suspect no one knows!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246133
03/26/12 12:37 PM
03/26/12 12:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Tacking angle is good for judging course laylines and some strategy.. Shorter time on the course usually keeps you ahead of competition (unless you're pinching, which is slow death) if all else is the same.

Let her drive and she'll figure out that tacking angle isn't nearly as important as tacking speed


Jay

Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246135
03/26/12 12:40 PM
03/26/12 12:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
I haven't forgotten how dismal my racing history is! I was hoping to learn from these people. She thinks tacking angle is important, I'm going to find out why.

But... I'm beginning to suspect no one knows!


Jake told you why.
Quote
Because it's what monohull sailors use to compare their boat to others. At 3 knots, 0.5 degrees higher is a big deal.

Sounds like she's a pokey boat sailor, and is thinking like one in reference to multis. Different thought process.
It's just a huge variable on multihulls that use apparent wind. The faster you go the less the angles are.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246136
03/26/12 12:42 PM
03/26/12 12:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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pgp  Offline OP
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Slight variation in subject: can you sail your A cat at 70 degrees(without pinching)?

Last edited by pgp; 03/26/12 12:45 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tacking angle [Re: pgp] #246149
03/26/12 02:16 PM
03/26/12 02:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by pgp
Slight variation in subject: can you sail your A cat at 70 degrees(without pinching)?


I've never kept track of it ( just now getting a tack tick set-up on the A) and I'd be guessing if I gave you an answer. I'm sure there are plenty who could tell you. Bob Hodges and Bob Curry ( as well as others) have done alot of documenting and tuning with GPS and could probably give you an educated answer.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
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