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Re: Rules changes [Re: John Williams] #246206
03/27/12 01:09 AM
03/27/12 01:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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C2 Mike  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted by John Williams
There has been lots of English-speaking, boat-owning and boat-building wrangling over the vertical plane wording. Nobody's ever come up with a better phrasing than we have. Take a whack at it?


Without giving it much thought -

"Vertical plane shall be defined as the z axis of the boat parallel to the direction of the mast (insert diagram here)."

Not that hard I would have thought - or am I missing something?

Michael

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #246213
03/27/12 05:32 AM
03/27/12 05:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 115
F
F18arg Offline
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Posts: 115
Beams 90°: That is what I proposed exactly and was used.
The Mast was proposed but as it may vary its angle due to shroud lenght trimming etc, was not used beside it is down at measurement.

It was a good working party.

Re: Rules changes [Re: C2 Mike] #246232
03/27/12 08:55 AM
03/27/12 08:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by TigerMike
Originally Posted by John Williams
There has been lots of English-speaking, boat-owning and boat-building wrangling over the vertical plane wording. Nobody's ever come up with a better phrasing than we have. Take a whack at it?


Without giving it much thought -

"Vertical plane shall be defined as the z axis of the boat parallel to the direction of the mast (insert diagram here)."

Not that hard I would have thought - or am I missing something?

Michael


You are missing that the Infusion (and the Cap, I think) would be non-compliant, as the hulls are canted.

Go back to my original. It works for all the boats, whereas the ERS ISAF description is innappropriate for a catamaran of two individual hulls (that may or may not be canted).

Flashy geometry language could be substituted for the part in question, (i.e. 'daggger boards and rudders will be at 90 degrees to the angle of attachment to the beams') could become ''daggger boards and rudders and the center plane shall be orthogonal (90 degrees) to the beam seating angle of the individual hulls' but my opinion is that simple language has advantages to acceptance and recall of rules, (vs jargon which is sometimes unintelligible).

Oh, and skip water line discussions. While there may be design specifications, actual water lines are unknown until a boat is floating. IMHO a waterline is an arbitrary, and empirical specification, and therefore a non-starter from a rules standpoint.

Last edited by rexdenton; 03/27/12 09:08 AM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #246286
03/27/12 03:28 PM
03/27/12 03:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
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F-18 5150  Offline
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california
Could we say the dagger boards and rudders will be Parallel?


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Rules changes [Re: F-18 5150] #246289
03/27/12 03:57 PM
03/27/12 03:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
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F18_VB Offline
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Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Could we say the dagger boards and rudders will be Parallel?
Parallel is good. But, in the same plane is more restrictive. Otherwise they could be offset from the "centerline."

Re: Rules changes [Re: F-18 5150] #246310
03/28/12 02:19 AM
03/28/12 02:19 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 96
Budapest, Hungary, Europe
CatSailingHu Offline
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CatSailingHu  Offline
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Budapest, Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Could we say the dagger boards and rudders will be Parallel?


+1.

This is the easiest to check. However, needs to enable some tolerance.


Sanyi
Nacra Infusion
www.catsailing.hu
Re: Rules changes [Re: ksurfer2] #246877
04/10/12 02:28 PM
04/10/12 02:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
For the love of God.....how long is this going to go on for?!?!?!


who needs a hug now?


Jay

Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #246906
04/11/12 08:55 AM
04/11/12 08:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Franck, It appears that you can't protest any painted boat in Carnac. The votes are in and Painted surfaces have been approved for all F18's including new builds.

The vote for 2 cloth mainsails was very close but the conservatives from FRA, and ITA had too much weight in the vote numbers and for now it is not possible to have 2 cloth mainsails, But that can be rectified in September at the Worlds meeting


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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #247015
04/15/12 02:55 AM
04/15/12 02:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
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franck Offline
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Posts: 108
Originally Posted by macca
Franck, It appears that you can't protest any painted boat in Carnac. The votes are in and Painted surfaces have been approved for all F18's including new builds.

The vote for 2 cloth mainsails was very close but the conservatives from FRA, and ITA had too much weight in the vote numbers and for now it is not possible to have 2 cloth mainsails, But that can be rectified in September at the Worlds meeting


My dear Andrew,

Obviously, one more time, you do not understand how it works. Or you do not have the right facts, anyway just ask before misinformed other sailors ( I recommand to every F18 sailors to ask their national association it is more serious) cool

Your mind is so confused (wishfull thinking is not enough) and may be you should make difference between two words: a wish and a rule.

Just try to read this:
"A.7.2 Amendments shall be placed on one year's notice unless it is considered essential to act immediately to prohibit or penalize an undesirable feature."

For Carnac, do not be afraid anymore I won't protest (as I write before). No time to waste, I'll be there to enjoy sailing and have some beer time with my friends. May be other factory people will go on your protest challenge, but it is your job your paid for. So sorry if you loose your beer time in protest room grin

More seriously as I explained here (everybody can read my numerous previous posts), class rules clarification and interpretation were necessary in order to go on derogation and/or grandfathering, or changing the rule.

There are 280 French F18 sailors in 2011, there were only 97 in 2006 when I was elected the first time in the french board association. I wish such a number of F18 sailors in all countries. I they are conservatives or not, really I do not care.

PS: I won't be able to have time to try to explain you again if you answer. That I don't doubt, it is your business, you're paid for, I hope it is a lot in order to accept to embarrassed yourself as on SA, very funny indeed and you were alone there.

I won't answer anymore, because we're now in sailing period and I'm training my club youth team: it is my passion. I'm not paid for that :), as to write (badly) here, so everybody can understand I prefer be on the water..

Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #247075
04/17/12 07:28 AM
04/17/12 07:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Yes Franck, you lost your fight.

Paint was always approved for use and now it has been clarified by a vote of all NCA's that they confirm paint for newly built boats.

I know you and your mates are pissed that you lost, but at least you could do it with dignity.





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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #247119
04/18/12 03:18 AM
04/18/12 03:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
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franck Offline
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franck  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by macca
Yes Franck, you lost your fight.

Paint was always approved for use and now it has been clarified by a vote of all NCA's that they confirm paint for newly built boats.

I know you and your mates are pissed that you lost, but at least you could do it with dignity.



Andrew, as everyone can read in previous post (or SA forum), paint is your personnal and business fight.
Please be more adult and try to forget loose/win and consider F18 rules and its global interest (which is wider than the very respectable interest of the company you're working for).

Olivier Bovyn, F18 world chairman want to go out from a poor looser/winner confrontation you seem to like.
As everyone noticed, TC advices for and against painting, WC last december clarification vote and ISAF interpretation drop paint finishing out two month ago.
That was, one more time, a mandatory path to go further: derogation as for ShockWave, grandfathering or changing the rule. That may arrive now.

This clear position (paint, except for real maintenance, is not F18 class legal) create an opposition.
You may understand that each action spliting the F18 community is against your own F18 business.

So, in order to get a peaceful consensus, as everyone can find on the f18.org Olivier Bovyn asked the national association what they do wish on several items including paint issue including grandfathering/derogation and changing this (now) clear rule.

You claim to have the results of this poll. Great !

Everybody can notice that I point out the rule changing process, month ago.

In the case that you do not forget some details (that I and everybody can doubt), to change the class rules there is , as everyone can check, a clear process.

Please have the dignity to respect it, and by the way respect the F18 community.
Because the rule changing process involved F18 members. In France at least that is our way and we propose in general meeting the change.

So, to go from a wish (Olivier Bovyn words: "do you wish...") to a rule change, you need first a proposal, which have to be voted then by the world council.
Till now, there is no clear and official proposal (you may have any other sensationnal informations to spread ?)

And then may be you should also consider ISAF regulation which do not accept paint/finishing that (pretend to is enough for ISAF, I guess) improve performance.
By the way you're sure that you do not use one of those in your product (just kiddin' ) ?

Then consider F18 class rules (I know it is borrying):
"A.7.2 Amendments shall be placed on one year's notice unless it is considered essential to act immediately to prohibit or penalize an undesirable feature."

So if the proposal (that may not exist for the moment ;-) for class rules amendment is voted (that is never 100% sure ;-) asap in september 2012 next WC meeting, the rules change will be available on year later, very effective in 2014.

Please do remenber here I just try to explain f18 rules and some facts (please pardon my poor globish), that is my only purpose.

And it is not a fight for me. I do no play anything here so I cannot win nor loose anything.

I'm so sorry I can't continue this interesting exchange for the moment: two weeks of sailing will take my time. Not less than 142 F18 sailors in Carnac 10 days before the Eurocat is more important for F18 that some paint on the hull.

Re: Rules changes [Re: franck] #247120
04/18/12 03:26 AM
04/18/12 03:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Originally Posted by franck

I won't answer anymore, because we're now in sailing period and I'm training my club youth team: it is my passion. I'm not paid for that :), as to write (badly) here, so everybody can understand I prefer be on the water..


Err, didn't you say that you weren't going to reply here anymore??

Anyhow, here are the vote results related to paint:-

Do we wish to change in the future the rules regarding hull exterior finish?
vote result :
YES : 947
NO : 0

If Yes, do we wish to allow “painted hulls” as the external finish?
vote result :
YES : 708
NO : 561

If Yes, do we wish to have a restricted paint list ?
vote result :
YES : 190
NO : 499

What is pretty funny about the above is that despite the NCA's clearly voting that they did not want a restricted paint list, the Class management have taken it upon themselves to compile a list of all paints used by builders so they can formulate an approved paint list!!



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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #247122
04/18/12 05:34 AM
04/18/12 05:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
F
franck Offline
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franck  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by franck

I won't answer anymore, because we're now in sailing period and I'm training my club youth team: it is my passion. I'm not paid for that :), as to write (badly) here, so everybody can understand I prefer be on the water..


Err, didn't you say that you weren't going to reply here anymore??

Anyhow, here are the vote results related to paint:-

Do we wish to change in the future the rules regarding hull exterior finish?
vote result :
YES : 947
NO : 0

If Yes, do we wish to allow “painted hulls” as the external finish?
vote result :
YES : 708
NO : 561

If Yes, do we wish to have a restricted paint list ?
vote result :
YES : 190
NO : 499

What is pretty funny about the above is that despite the NCA's clearly voting that they did not want a restricted paint list, the Class management have taken it upon themselves to compile a list of all paints used by builders so they can formulate an approved paint list!!




What you write deserved some corrections and complementary information, not specially for you but for F18 readers/sailors.

Be happy, we're going in 15 minutes... I understand very well that you prefer have no contradiction.

The result you have, if they're correct, show that you were wrong (on more time) considering WC attitude.

Just respect the rules and the people and you can move with the community.

Now we're waiting for the proposal... may be you'll have it before the WC members.
Showing all this data is very strange and significate there is two kinds of F18 members.

PS: 142 F18 sailors for the Eurocat, one more time it is more important for me that your marketing/technical indeed poor fight, as you see there is consensus to change the rule after it has been clarified. No need to be very clever to get that point.

http://www.yccarnac.com/uploads/htm...cat%202012/R_EUROCAT_INSCRIPTION_INS.HTM

Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #247125
04/18/12 08:32 AM
04/18/12 08:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Franck,

Once again, I am seriously struggling to understand what you are on about.

The votes clearly show that the NCA's approve of paint, and that they do not wish to have a restricted paint list.

If you would like to point out any corrections with the voting results I am more than happy for you to do so. But I doubt if you will make any comment on them because you know they are correct. You have received the results just as all NCA's have. So if any members of the class would like to know the results in full they can ask their NCA representative and I am sure they will pass on the info.



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Re: Rules changes [Re: franck] #247128
04/18/12 08:47 AM
04/18/12 08:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
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rexdenton Offline
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rexdenton  Offline
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Posts: 297
Originally Posted by franck

...one more time it is more important for me that your marketing/technical indeed poor fight, as you see there is consensus to change the rule after it has been clarified. No need to be very clever to get that point.



....I'm getting a better idea why the rules committee comes out with indecisive rules that read like they were composed by people that don't speak English...

Last edited by rexdenton; 04/18/12 08:48 AM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Rules changes [Re: rexdenton] #247145
04/18/12 12:51 PM
04/18/12 12:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
I may be incorrect because of a language gap but it sounds like Franck is saying that the NCA's vote does NOT automatically make paint legal. Further, I intrepret Franck's response is that paint has been deemed illegal and until there is a formal petition/proposal that includes an extended waiting/phase-in time if approved, paint continues to be illegal.


Kris
....considering an F18

Re: Rules changes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #247147
04/18/12 01:37 PM
04/18/12 01:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
old hand
ksurfer2  Offline
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K

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Kris - The f18 is a great platform and the class is really doing great things here in the states. Do not let the pissing match between these two tools affect your decision.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Rules changes [Re: ksurfer2] #247152
04/18/12 02:01 PM
04/18/12 02:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
I agree. Trying to figure a way to at least visit the F18 Worlds in Cali.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Rules changes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #247154
04/18/12 02:31 PM
04/18/12 02:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
old hand
ksurfer2  Offline
old hand
K

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Step 1: Buy my boat (see classifieds)
Step 2: Go!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #247162
04/18/12 04:25 PM
04/18/12 04:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Jeff.Dusek  Offline
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J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Kris,

I know of at least one East Coast F18 that is looking for a crew for worlds. He has a 2011 C2. Let me know if you are interested and I can get you in touch.

-Jeff


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
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