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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: TheManShed] #247220
04/19/12 10:13 AM
04/19/12 10:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
basic economics of supply and demand. That being said, I can't imagine the profit margins are substantial due to all of the reasons posted.

Who said Shiny-itis was cheap?


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #247222
04/19/12 10:21 AM
04/19/12 10:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the F18, but the F18 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


Fixed it

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the F16, but the F16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


Fixed it again.

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the A-cat, but the A-cat crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


I could keep going but I was getting bored.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247225
04/19/12 11:47 AM
04/19/12 11:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
Yes I agree that it is to a large part the # of boats being sold and also inflation. REAL inflation is a lot more than the official story. The long daggers really hurt the class IMHO.. A lot of these boats are going to cottagers/occasional racers and the thought of replacing daggers @ $1500 each (give or take) is really a turn off.

The Euro guys are driving the market now and I think the market is different over there..more high tech and less casual sailing.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247226
04/19/12 11:47 AM
04/19/12 11:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
You're probably right Dave. I'm not that way I don't think. I sail F16 because of a lack of other viable options. Nothing else fits the bill.

Had I won the mega millions a few weeks ago I'd have someone working on a 20' singlehander with a wing, a spinnaker, some sort of lifting board, and very little weight.


I'm boatless.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F18_VB] #247229
04/19/12 12:05 PM
04/19/12 12:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
Originally Posted by F18_VB
I think the biggest thing that changed is that there is no longer the perception that the Tiger (a 10+ year old design) can win any regatta. The perception may or may not be based in reality. But, it means that sailors are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as a faster boat.

Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.

This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).


My bet is a Cirrus R will win and it will probably be Orange. Maybe after the Worlds there will be some nice New/Used boats available. My understanding is there is at least one of the newer designed boats up for a new hulls to follow the Cirrus R in the fat and flat bottom.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247230
04/19/12 12:06 PM
04/19/12 12:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
addict
TheManShed  Offline
addict

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
Think F-18's are expensive?

How about a $15 million, 140-foot trimaran just launched.
Build of Carbon Fiber, Kevlar, and Foam in China non-the-less.
That is only $107,142.86 per foot

Adastra Super Yacht

.john-shuttleworth


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247232
04/19/12 02:01 PM
04/19/12 02:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
Well since I started this I will share where we ended up. My new F-18 is a 2007 Tiger with custom sails. At my skill level I just can't justify another $20,000 so I'll be staying crazy on 5150.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247235
04/19/12 03:04 PM
04/19/12 03:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
+1

no amount of boat design will ever make up for my multiple blown tacks/gybes, overstanding the mark, bad starts and poor seamanship skill.


Jay

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: orphan] #247253
04/20/12 04:52 AM
04/20/12 04:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted by orphan
10K for a Hobie 16 ain't cheap. What was the price of a hobie 16 in the mid 80's 1500-2000. Do you realize that used 80s and 90s hobies are selling for more then the cost new(20 years ago). But it is not just cats. Look at the laser(same boat higher price).


Oh FFS! Mid 80's was near 30 years ago! As CEO/General manager/President or whatever you call it in your part of the world of several businesses, one industry I wouldn't want to be in over the last 5 years is boat building. Save a few long established OD classes such as H16 it'd be a very hard gig. Let alone on a development class such as F18 where one month you have the fastest mousetrap only to be the trash next.

For me, the cost of R&D is very much under estimated. The number of boats it's amortised over, even if you are on a winner is really quite low, especially when you take into account the ongoing costs such as sail and foil development over the lifetime of a hull.

Of course it's not a total explanation of costs but the business of selling boats these days would be a hard gig IMO.

Tiger(C2)Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: David Ingram] #247254
04/20/12 05:01 AM
04/20/12 05:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the F18, but the F18 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


Fixed it

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the F16, but the F16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


Fixed it again.

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


I don't have anything against the A-cat, but the A-cat crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.


I could keep going but I was getting bored.


hahahaha funny but oh so true.

Tiger(C2)Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: C2 Mike] #247256
04/20/12 06:39 AM
04/20/12 06:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
old hand
mikekrantz  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
Parts required to build an A-cat mast from bare tube..

Carbon ISO plate base - clearcoated
1
$225.00
$225.00
4 cleat with rotation control arm and over rotation ears
G-10 insert
1
$21.00
$21.00
mast base insert
Mast step cone w/nut
1
$60.00
$60.00
Mast step hinge - upper
1
$27.00
$27.00
RF5101 V-Cleat
1
$5.00
$5.00
downhaul preset
474 Micro Cam Cleats w/xtrm FL
5
$33.00
$165.00
downhaul & diamond control & coarse rotation
Cam cleat spacers
4
$7.00
$28.00
align cam cleats with exit boxes
RF20711HL exit blocks
4
$27.00
$108.00
control line entry
302 wire exit block
2
$34.00
$68.00
control line exit
408 16mm triple
2
$32.00
$64.00
control line purchase
406 16mm double
2
$22.00
$44.00
control line purchase
404 16mm Single
2
$10.00
$20.00
diamond control & coarse rotation purchase
R2934 bullseye
1
$6.25
$6.25
coarse rotation
RF614 D-shackle
1
$5.00
$5.00
404 attach to diamond control arm
RF634 D-shackle
1
$4.00
$4.00
Trapeze attachment
RF-635 D-shackle
1
$6.00
$6.00
stay attachment
T-ball Dual shackle Gibb fitting
1
$70.00
$70.00
T-ball Gibb fitting attachment
350 Cheek Block
1
$11.00
$11.00
downhaul secondary turning
348 29mm Carbo Single
3
$10.00
$30.00
downhaul secondary & coarse rotation
RF1315 Black ball
1
$2.00
$2.00
downhaul tack attachment
Rigging pin - 2.5"
2
$4.00
$8.00
for internal block hangers
internal block hanger
2
$29.00
$58.00
DH & diamond control internals
RF27 backing strap
2
$4.00
$8.00
to reinforce control arm pivot
1/4" x 4" ss bolt, sleeve & nut & derin/teflon spacers
1
$10.00
$10.00
control arm pivot
Anodized Aluminum Diamond Lever Arm
1
$95.00
$95.00
Diamond Wires 6100mm (pr)
1
$140.00
$140.00
2.5mm HS with unfinished bottom ends
Closed body turnbuckles JH03113
2
$25.00
$50.00
for bottom end of diamond wires
Selden Spreaders - 450 mm - w/thumb adj. (pr)
1
$190.00
$190.00
Selden
Selden Front spreader bracket
1
$25.00
$25.00
Rear spreader bracket
2
$25.00
$50.00
Mast head sail hook
1
$60.00
$60.00
proper fit for Hall tube.
4mm dbl braid - blue - (Robline Dinghy Control)
28
$0.90
$25.20
diamond control primary (25) & DH clew blocks (3)
3mm dyneema single braid - blue (Robline)
5
$0.40
$2.00
diamond control secondary
5mm single braid - red (Robline Racing Sheet)
50
$0.80
$40.00
downhaul primary
4mm dbl braid -red (Robline Dinghy Control)
8
$0.50
$4.00
downhaul secondary
4mm dbl braid - yellow (Robline Dinghy Control)
5
$0.90
$4.50
coarse rotation
Total
$1,739

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247257
04/20/12 07:28 AM
04/20/12 07:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
Hey, for $7,000 less than a new F18, you can have one of these, and guess what?

Even though it's 'slow', it's twice as fast as an F18! (the cat, not the jet)

$13,000 ready to fly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lhz0JwxkQA

So easy a 14yr. old boy just bought one!

http://fly103.com/



Blade F16
#777
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #247258
04/20/12 07:42 AM
04/20/12 07:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
addict
TheManShed  Offline
addict

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
+1

no amount of boat design will ever make up for my multiple blown tacks/gybes, overstanding the mark, bad starts and poor seamanship skill.


Ha too funny but sadly enough true for many or by my XXL size. But you got to love it.
All said and done the beauty and awesomeness of a F18, skippered by the best and touch of the luck, around the marks is spectacular. I remember thinking that about most new designs as they came out starting with the NACRA 5.2. I keep on saying they cant push cat design much further and over the years Im always surprised.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: TheManShed] #247259
04/20/12 08:07 AM
04/20/12 08:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
addict

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Human lawn dart...yikes!


Kris Hathaway
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Timbo] #247265
04/20/12 08:55 AM
04/20/12 08:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Timbo
Hey, for $7,000 less than a new F18, you can have one of these, and guess what?

Even though it's 'slow', it's twice as fast as an F18! (the cat, not the jet)

$13,000 ready to fly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lhz0JwxkQA

So easy a 14yr. old boy just bought one!

http://fly103.com/



Yes, because when I buy an airplane, cheap is on the top of my list. eek


Jake Kohl
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247276
04/20/12 02:47 PM
04/20/12 02:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
All my copilots are chipping in to buy me one of those, such nice guys they all are!

Hey, Flying (or falling) won't kill you, it's the sudden stop that kills you! You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Timbo] #247280
04/20/12 03:57 PM
04/20/12 03:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: hobie1616] #247281
04/20/12 04:05 PM
04/20/12 04:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
P.M.  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.

My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: P.M.] #247283
04/20/12 04:48 PM
04/20/12 04:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.

My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.

At $400K they should come with a helium balloon that would gently deposit you back on Mother Earth. wink


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: P.M.] #247313
04/21/12 09:02 PM
04/21/12 09:02 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by Timbo
You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!

A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.

My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.


$400K for a Cirrus SR22 - wowch!!!

Originally Posted by Timbo
All my copilots are chipping in to buy me one of those, such nice guys they all are!

Hey, Flying (or falling) won't kill you, it's the sudden stop that kills you! You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!


Come on out to CMA... we have a flying circus of these things...

I swear one of these days Bob Dylan's G5 is going to hit one

Last edited by Ventucky Red; 04/21/12 09:06 PM.
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