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Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? #247729
05/03/12 08:54 PM
05/03/12 08:54 PM
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dstgean Offline OP
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I've taken my TheMightyHobie18 on the T200 in 08 and had fun, but it wasn't really up for a cruising payload (water mostly). I'd like to find a boat that can handle a bit of weight but still be light enough to horse around solo. I'm a teacher, so the budget is tight. I could sell the TheMightyHobie18 or part it out as that seems to be where the value is on those right now. I have built a high volume cat for beachcruising with two or more based on Gary Dierking's Tamanu design that I took on the 09 Texas 200 camp cruise. I'd like to do much the same but with a smaller lighter cat. I have to be able to right it solo, carry my camping kit, food, and water. Sleeping on the tramp would be nice if it dried out, but camping ashore would be ok too. I like wings and potentially self bailing footwells in the hulls if I were to build one. Obviously those would be out if it were a stock beachcat. I kinda like uni rigs, but having a chute would be nice too. I don't mind building from scratch, but it might be easier to find something stock and modify it instead. Do you have any suggestions? I think an acceptable payload might be 350-400#?

Thanks,

Dan

Last edited by dstgean; 05/03/12 08:55 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247735
05/04/12 12:01 AM
05/04/12 12:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline
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japan
not a cat but a lot of what you want is in the 14' weta trimaran


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: erice] #247747
05/04/12 07:49 AM
05/04/12 07:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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sounds like a Stilleto 23 might fit the bill, although you wouldn't be able to right it singlehanded...


Jay

Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247751
05/04/12 08:31 AM
05/04/12 08:31 AM
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dstgean Offline OP
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All the "big beachcats" are out as I'd like a smaller platform than what I have now. H21 SC, Stilleto 23, and all the other larger cats are WAY more than what I want. A fast daysailor with some freeboard and light enough to right solo. Any suggestions? My TheMightyHobie18 has very little freeboard aft and tends to be real wet at times. Maybe I should be looking for wings for it, but righting it solo even at 210# is a bit iffy. Anything with more freeboard and lighter would be good.

The Weta is a good suggestion although one has yet to finish the EC. Also new it's a bit over 10K which blows my budget.

Any other suggestions? Any links of beachcats with thier specs rather than just their ratings?

Dan

Last edited by dstgean; 05/04/12 08:32 AM.
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247757
05/04/12 10:46 AM
05/04/12 10:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 144
Near SLC, Utah
tomthouse Offline
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I've always enjoyed sailing and weekend boatcamping and cruising using my Supercat 17, though we've also used a 747 Freestyle 15.

Come to think about it, we also used an old 19 foot solid bridgedeck P-cat. That was one of the first beach cats, that pre-dated the hobie line. It is a solid tank-of-a-boat that has trap lines and goes pretty good loaded to the gills.

We've even rigged a 35 hp outboard on that one, from time to time, plus we've had four scuba divers, all their gear, tanks and lunch on some of our goof-off day cruises, here and there.

The Stiletto 27 is the most comfortable and can easily handle four people and all the gear, food and water for a two week (boat-camping) cruise, most any where.

The Supercat 17 is boardless, sails well and has lots of reserve boyancy in the hulls and particularly in the bows.

We've used that one lots and lots of times.

It can be sailed uni or sloop-rigged, but we usually sail with a jib on a roller furler.

From time to time I've thought about adding a chute for long hauls down wind...but simpler is ...well....simpler to sail, maintain, and fix, when things break while cruising...not to mention cheaper.

The Supercat is ealily set up and are easy to sail.

These boats sail very well in open water, even loaded with gear.

We've (from time to time) even mounted a small "Cruise n carry" type 1 hp outboard off the rear beam for long hauls when the wind puffed out and didn't cooperate.

The Sueprcat 17 is a boat that was in production during the 80's and early 90's probably. They sail well without all the gear and with two guys trapped out on the wire....and their rudder system is bullet proof.

We've done tons of beachcat crusing to Catalina and various locations on parts of Mexico's Sea of Cortez.

We strap water and a couple of dry bags to the tramp and bring back-packing types, minimalist gear.

That typically includes sleeping bags, a dome tent or blue tarp strung over the boom to keep the dew off when sleeping on the boat's trap under the stars, on the beach. We take a backpacker's camp stove and lantern, freeze dried food or simple one-pot meals like stew and top ramon noodles, energy bars, etc.

Great fun and our beachcat crusing and beach camping off the beached boat has been a blast.

Aquarius Sails (Tom Haberman) still supports these boats at http://www.aquarius-sail.com/

You can see how they look at http://sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=4967

I sure have liked mine and sailed it every where duirng the last ....many years.

Hobie Gary of southern California rasied (using a beach cat for crusing) to an art form, during his many solo and buddy-boat group trips to and around California's Cannel Islands.

Where are you located?


Last edited by tomthouse; 05/04/12 01:39 PM.
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: tomthouse] #247759
05/04/12 11:39 AM
05/04/12 11:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 144
Near SLC, Utah
tomthouse Offline
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Near SLC, Utah
Here are some (Hobie Gary) tips for beach cat crusing that you might find of some passing interest.

Recommended Gear to Bring on Boat:

• Waterproof VHF marine radio in a waterproof radio bag. Standard HX350S Submersible is one of the best choices for catamarans. Protect the radio from direct hits by ocean waves. Keep it inside a duffel bag or other container when not in use. Make sure your battery is fully charged before leaving! Don't wear down your battery by using the radio unless necessary! Most radio failures are battery failures. Waterproof bags aren't perfect. They often leak a tablespoon or two of water. In order to prevent this from corroding your radio (esp. the battery charging contacts), always remove the radio from the bag after sailing and rinse it in fresh water.

• PDF of appropriate size, with attached whistle, for each person. These must be worn at all times.

• One wetsuit per person, of appropriate size. It is recommended to wear the wetsuit all of the time from the beginning of the trip to avoid fatigue from cold, wind, etc.

• Three meteor flares and three hand-held flares

• A paddle (daggerboards do NOT count!)

• Minimum 1 liter of water per person (more recommended).

• Waterproof flashlight

• Compass

• Map of crusing area. If you laminate this in clear plastic shelf lining material (about $3/roll), it will be waterproof and tearproof. Bring 2 copies in case you lose one.

• Rigging and trapeze wires in good shape. Any rusty wires or wires with broken strands must be replaced before the trip. Also check the trapeze wires, hooks, adjusters, and lines.

• A righting line sufficient to right the boat unassisted.

• A 50 foot or longer tow line, 1/4 inch minimum. This line is also used to secure the boats on beach when unattended.

• Give your boat a shakedown sail BEFORE the day of the trip! Check the sails, rigging, righting line, etc. Practice tacking, gybing, trapezing, and otherwise sailing your boat with all crew and gear aboard. Practice a capsize and righting to make sure you know where everything is, that it is working properly, and that your gear won't cause a problem. Also, practice furling your jib around the forestay in case this is needed because of high winds. Make sure the jib can be tied securely and won't come undone in the wind, even after 3 hours of flogging.

We also often take two ABS plastic sewer pipes, strapped under the tramp.

One is a 4 inch and the other a 3. We nest the 3 inside the 4 and glue screw on covers on the 4 inch at either end.

We use these to "roll" the boat onto the beach which is much esier than draggng it.

Put one under the bow and lift the stern so you can put the other pipe under the midsection.

When that one pops out the back of the boat while roling it up the beach, stop and put it under the boat's bows. and continue rolling until the ohter one pops out.

This is very easy and beats other ways I've tried.


Additional Equipment:

• Large Dry Bag - These are large enough to hold a sleeping bag and clothes, etc for 1 person. Get this early! Suppliers are West Marine, REI, A16, and Cascade Outfitters (go to http://www.cascadeoutfitters.com/riverhome/bagsm.html). West Marine usually has 2-3 in stock, and can get more from their warehouse in 2-3 days. But, if 15 people show up just two days before the trip, there won’t be time to order enough drybags and there might be a problem!

• Sleeping Bag - We usually go in the summertime so it's not too cold. However, remember that it's outdoors and it could get chilly at night. Also, there is usually a lot of dew that falls at night, and if you are sleeping in you bag under the sky (this is what I do), it will get a little damp on the outside. You may not want to bring an expensive down bag, however, as there is always the possibility that it could get wet while sailing on the boats! An inexpensive to medium cost synthetic sleeping bag is usually a good choice.

• Sleeping Pad - If you want to sleep on the ground, bring an Ensolite pad or similar to keep your sleeping bag off of the dirt and rocks. This will also keep you warmer. I prefer to sleep on the trampoline, since it is like a giant hammock. It is much softer than sleeping on the ground, and also significantly warmer, since your body heat isn’t going directly into the cold ground.

• Tent - It can be used either in nearby campgrounds (if avaiable) or on the beach next to your boat. If it is one of the self-supporting kinds (with a built-in frame), you could also set it on the trampoline, to keep the hammock effect but still have an enclosed sleeping space.

• Tarp - If you want to sleep on the ground, you may want a tarp to place under your sleeping bag & pad. You could also use a tarp & some spare lines to make a tent on the boat using the boom. This is the easiest, unless you get thundershowers and pouring rain.

• Toiletries - toothbrush, toothpaste, floss, hairbrush or comb, etc.

• Clothes - General suggestions are:
1 pair jeans
1 swimsuit
2-3 t-shirts
1 sweatshirt
1 rain slicker
1 hat (for sailing or general usage)
1 pair shoes/sandals - If these can get wet, they are easier to carry on the boat since you don’t need to fit them in a drybag. If you want to do a lot of hiking, choose appropriate shoes to bring along.

• Spare trash bags + duct tape - These may come in handy for emergency waterproofing of extra gear.

• A large nylon duffel bag - I place my drybags inside a duffel bag when carrying it on the boat. There are several purposes for this:
1. The duffel protects the plastic drybag from puncture.
2. The duffel has extra pockets for stuff that doesn’t need to stay dry. This also includes fast-access items like water, snacks, radio/GPS, etc.
3. The duffel deflects the initial brunt of waves from the drybag. Full force waves may force their way inside the seal of the drybag. The duffel cuts at least 90% of the wave’s force before it hits the drybag to reduce this problem. Another tip: face the drybag seal toward the rear of the boat (inside of the duffel) to further reduce wave-induced leakage.
4. The duffel is easier to attach to the boat. Duffels usually have several strong handles, which can be tied with lines. Use 2 lines to attach the duffel to your boat. The primary line is about 8’ long, and is tied from the duffel to the mast. It should be very strong and tied securely. The spare line can be coiled and stuffed somewhere out of the way. The second "working" line is only 3’ long, and is usually tied to one end of the duffel. The other end can be used to secure the duffel to the windward side of the boat in a convenient position, or to the mast when tacking/gybing a lot. In the event of a capsize, you don’t want 50 lbs. of gear attached to the trampoline or the mast, where it would work against the weight of the crew, perhaps making the boat unrightable. To avoid this problem, if you capsize, just untie the short working line and let the duffel float in the water. It will still be secured to the boat by the longer, primary line. After righting, pull the floating duffel from the water and back onto the boat.

Other stuff to consider:

• Spray-suit (semi-dry suit) or spray-top to wear over your wetsuit. These really help to keep you warm by cutting down the evaporative cooling of water from your wetsuit.

• Sunscreen, hats, sunglasses. You should also wear retaining devices for your glasses and hat. I use croakies on my glasses, and I use an old batten tie from my hat to my shirt (attach with a safety pin).

• Swim goggles - These may be handy to keep spray out of your eyes if it is very windy/choppy

• Trapeze harnesses for all on board. If the wind is very strong, the boat can be much easier to control when one or two crew trapeze.

• Spare pins, clevis pins (ring ding's), and shackles for your boat.

• Towing insurance in case of breakage - SeaTow, BOAT/US, and Vessel Assist offer cheap insurance (e.g. about $70/year for unlimited towing). If anything breaks halfway to Catalina and you need a tow, it could easily cost you $500-$1000 depending on distance, weather conditions, etc.

• Marine insurance for your boat - If bad weather forces you to abandon your boat, if high waves destroy your boat on the rocks, or if some other calamity strikes, you will wish you had this. It is very inexpensive (about $10/month for full coverage). It will also protect you if you collide with another boat and must pay repair costs or personal injury damages.


When packing, put things into three piles: 1 the stuff you'd die without or be arrested; 2 the stuff that'd make the trip just a little more comfortable; and pile 3 the stuff that would really be handy.

Then take all of pile 1 and only a few carefullly selected items from pile 2. Leave all of pile 3 at home, it will just be in the way all the time, and weight too much.

Last edited by tomthouse; 05/04/12 12:06 PM.
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247769
05/04/12 04:56 PM
05/04/12 04:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
daniel_t Offline
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Palm Harbor, FL
Originally Posted by dstgean
Any other suggestions? Any links of beachcats with thier specs rather than just their ratings?


A friend of mine has an Inter 17. It seems to have a lot of freeboard. It's a uni-rig but you can put spinnakers on them. Righting the boat single-handed is doable though you may want a righting poll or bag if you have camping gear on the boat.

Length: 5.3 m
Beam: 2.5 m
Displacement: 140 Kg
Sail area (main): 13.8 sq m (spinnaker) 17 sq m


Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247775
05/04/12 06:01 PM
05/04/12 06:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 43
NQLD, Australia
Learning to Fly... Offline
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Learning to Fly...  Offline
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NQLD, Australia
I tried the PVC roller idea but it didn't work for my cat. Up steep beaches they wouldn't roll but dug in and created point loads on the hulls, cracking the gelcoat. It found it better to use beach rollers strapped to the bows.

I have single and double handed camped in my Taipan 4.9. It is easy to right single handed but it is too lightweight for long term camping use. 96kg rigged (210 lbs)

I find it is safer to kayak when travelling solo, though I thinking of building a tacking outrigger as a camping boat that can be easily dragged up and down the beach. Something like Holopuni OC3 would be ideal but not cheap

http://catsailor.net/forums/showthread.php?4190-Taipan-4-9-Whitsunday-Islands-Cruise






Last edited by Learning to Fly...; 05/04/12 06:05 PM.
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247776
05/04/12 08:08 PM
05/04/12 08:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 94
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dstgean Offline OP
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Good stuff fellas. Lots of this stuff I'm really familiar with having done several week long cat trips and even more kayak trips. The info is good nonetheles. I'd love to get some more specific boat recommendations though. I have built a couple outrigger canoes--Gary Dierking's Ulua and Tamanu. They might be better in some respects for righting. In the '09 Texas 200 trip I used two Tamanu hulls melded with my hobie 18 gear, mast, beams, tramp, etc. It's a big cat though... hence my interest in a solo boat.

Thanks for the Taipan suggestion BTW.

Dan

Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247790
05/05/12 04:01 AM
05/05/12 04:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 43
NQLD, Australia
Learning to Fly... Offline
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NQLD, Australia
What was the Ulua's performance and carrying capacity compared to the TheMightyHobie18?

I don't like single handing my Taipan when camping for the following reasons:

1. Can't get it up and down the beach when loaded without giving the hulls a hard time. Something like a Hobie would be better because you could sail it up the beach and the hulls would take it.

2. Above 20kts wind speed the boat once capsized drifts faster than I can swim. It has happened twice to me while racing. With out a safety boat I would have been in trouble.

3. I don't like being on the wire by myself offshore, something breaks and your stuffed.

It looks like you have tried the tacking outrigger but are going back to a beach cat, why, was it too much of a performance hit?

Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247869
05/06/12 02:52 PM
05/06/12 02:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
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dstgean Offline OP
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I never really felt comfortable with my ulus for a couple reasons. The first was my fault. I didn't built some of the systems light enough--the amas for example were 30# each for the trimaran versions. I got the specs from the HSCA guys--probably too much for anywhere outside of channel crossing guys. The other kicker for me was the open canoe that was only 18" deep. Like all multis it slices through most waves, and I'd get motorboat wakes slopping in reasonably requently. It sailed well, but I upped the sail area. In short, they are good rides, but need a bit of tuning that boats like the decked Holopuni has done. For me the death knell was the long setup time. Gary Dierking's most recent outrigger has overcome most of that list. It's faster to launch and has self bailing footwells. I guess it's kind of lke a modern Malibu outrigger in function, but stylistically a Fijian Va'. Sailing on the ama to windward tack it's like sailing a International canoe once the ama get up a bit--kinda challenging. If you can suit the sail are a for the conditions, and keep the ama planted that might be relaxing enough to cruise in. I'm presently more drawn to the tri or cat for beachcruising...or an outrigger that has a large volume ama, a safety ama, reefing rig, tramp, self bailing footwells, etc. Pretty much what Gary's put together for his Va'Motu really. I have my big Tamanu hulls still that I could use for either a Hobie 18/Tamanu mashup or use for outriggers or trimaran vakas. As a cat, it's a big volume beast, yet not much heavier than the TheMightyHobie18. As an outrigger it would be substantially lighter=nice for the solo tripper. As a tri, it would be back to geting a bit heavy again.

For my beachcruising, I like much of what has been posted above, thanks for the input. For a build from scratch boat, it's got to have comfortable seating, self bailing footwells, reefable rig, enought freeboard to be somewhat dry if I decided to dial it back a bit, fast enough to be fun, light enough to drag up the beach solo, and stable enough to not be super edgy to sail without being a dog on the other hand. That could be a boat based on a production cat, a build of my own, and that could be a cat, tri or outrigger.

Here at the catsailor board, I thought I might get some production cat suggestions that might fit a bit--and I have had a few suggestions in that vein. Keeping it to an older design or one that's more afordable is a bit of a challenge. Any other suggestions for something light andcheap.

Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247887
05/07/12 05:37 AM
05/07/12 05:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 43
NQLD, Australia
Learning to Fly... Offline
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Learning to Fly...  Offline
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NQLD, Australia
Thanks for the info on the various outriggers, I agree that an inter17 would make a good durable camping boat. In Aust they are not cheap.

Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247908
05/07/12 01:09 PM
05/07/12 01:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 94
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dstgean Offline OP
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There's a couple little tris that might work for me as well including the Richard Woods Strike 15 and a couple of Gary Dierking's newer outriggers (but I may perfer a tri) like his Va'Motu. For light cats & solo use, how about an 18 square?

Dan

Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247921
05/07/12 09:08 PM
05/07/12 09:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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38.912, -95.37
Prindle 15


John H16, H14
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: _flatlander_] #247948
05/08/12 12:08 PM
05/08/12 12:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL
what was wrong with a H-16 again?

There's a dude in Dunedin with a tricked out H-18/wings (or is it a H-20?) - pretty slick camper/cruiser


Jay

Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247992
05/09/12 07:46 AM
05/09/12 07:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 215
Ohio
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TeamTeets Offline
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TeamTeets  Offline
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Ohio
The old G Cat 5.7 would be a great boat for your needs if you can find one in good shape. Lots of freeboard plus front tramp for gear.


Mike, Ohio
Former H16, H18, N20, N17, M4.3
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #247996
05/09/12 08:16 AM
05/09/12 08:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,044
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
http://outrig.org/outrig.org/OutRig.html

Here's some history for you, most of what you are talking about has already been designed/built over the years.

Dick Newick used to sell plans for a Trimaran's center hull, to which you added two Hobie 16 hulls, and used the H16 mast/sails for power. It had a small cabin you culd sleep in too.

I thought about building one a long time ago, I always thought the H16 hulls/rig were a bit -undersized- for heavy wind sailing, or light air power. I would like to use Nacra 18 or Hobie 18 hulls/rig.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #248025
05/09/12 04:50 PM
05/09/12 04:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline
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erice  Offline
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japan
tremolo

tremolo

Last edited by erice; 05/09/12 04:51 PM.

eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #248027
05/09/12 05:30 PM
05/09/12 05:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,044
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Yeah, it's a Tremolino I think. If you scroll down it's in a couple of those pictures. The H16 hull is burried, on a reach, in light air, which is why I thought an 18 or even an Inter 20 hull (and rig/sails) would be much better.

http://www.tremolinotri.com/oregonphil/023.jpg

http://www.tremolinotri.com/oregonphil/028.jpg


Blade F16
#777
Re: Good cheaper solo cat for beachcruising? [Re: dstgean] #248049
05/10/12 06:17 AM
05/10/12 06:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 25
Moscow, Russia
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Nail_S Offline
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Moscow, Russia
[Linked Image]
I think, something like this can easily fit your requirements. May be this boat is not as fast as H-18, but it is lighter and can carry heavy loads.
http://triton-ltd.ru/ru/products/catamaranssail/tayfun
http://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://triton-ltd.ru/ru/products/catamaranssail/tayfun
But it's other side of the Earth....

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Sep 10th, 2019
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