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When should the RC pull the plug #248316
05/14/12 08:55 AM
05/14/12 08:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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The MHC is getting ready to submit a set of gear requirements to the Safety at Sea Committee of US Sailing. This would set a standard for Yacht Clubs to reference when giving beach cats a start.

The other half the equation is the PRO and the OA. when should they pull the plug.

Rick White recounts this event.
Quote

Loc: Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Talk aboout blowouts, I recall the 13th Annual Key Largo Steeplechase held on Saturday the 13th of December.
First day wasn't bad, but the second day the race started in winds over 25, and were said to gust close to 50.
of the 45 boats, only 3 finished.
With the winds out of the west most of the boats washed up on shore all along the Keys on the Bay Side.
The start is on the ocean side and the winds were sailable at the start, so most of the boats were already on the inside of the Keys when the bad stuff hit the fan.
All but a couple of boats, that is. One boat was never seen again, both sailors were rescued.
Marine Patrol and Sheriff were threatening to arrest everyone and confiscate their boats -- saying it was a frivolous activity on the water.

I believe Mary said in her editorial about it, "All water activity is frivolous, except for fishermen and drug runners."
laugh
Rick
_________________________
Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com


I have been on both sides of this issue....as a competitor and as the OA.....

Personally, I think you have to rethink the problem each and every time.... After things have inverted... you don't want to have half assed this one.

When and Who should pull the plug?


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248325
05/14/12 09:25 AM
05/14/12 09:25 AM
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pgp Offline
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laugh


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248329
05/14/12 09:56 AM
05/14/12 09:56 AM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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The RC should pull the plug when they do not feel it is safe for them, their mark boats, chase boast, etc to be on the water. The decision to sail/not sail falls squarely on the shoulders of the competitors!

To date, is anyone aware of a case where a club/OA has been successfully sued by a competitor due to damage/injury/death that had occurred during a race in "sporty" conditions.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248332
05/14/12 10:06 AM
05/14/12 10:06 AM
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pgp Offline
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That will occur immediately upon USS, the federally mandated sailing monopoly, establishing a protocol.

Once that protocol is established the Coasties will charge you a ****-ton of money to rescue you. And rightly so.

Last edited by pgp; 05/14/12 10:07 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248333
05/14/12 10:16 AM
05/14/12 10:16 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Bingo, Karl and Pete nailed it!

Mark what did Rick do to piss you off so bad!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248334
05/14/12 10:19 AM
05/14/12 10:19 AM
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pgp Offline
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My point is that politics has an interest in sailors whether sailors are interested or not.

If you want input into the "federally mandated sailing monopoloy" and the protocols they will be establishing to govern you, join USS and demand open popular elections.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: ksurfer2] #248335
05/14/12 10:27 AM
05/14/12 10:27 AM
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Posts: 3,116
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Good standard answer.... But insurance and legal liability are not the cutting issue here.

We don't and can't sweep the beachcat fleet in a distance race. Often, the OA often has no one on the water and so the issue for the OA jumps to a more difficult level of decision.

So... we have two kinds of races... Steeplechase and Great Texas where the OA and sailors can make a decision each day of the race and the impact is just on cat sailors.
VS
In something like the MKL or the Chesapeake Race to Oxford with many monohull boats which meet PHRF safety regulations for the type of racing ....a monohull competitor would have had to drop out to rescue the Hobie 16 had they discovered the situation. There is no question for the monohull, they will render assistance... But

The OA does not have to accept entries from Beach Cats....so IMO... we need to think about how WE manage the issue when the safety standards are so different between beachcats and the rest of the fleet.

When I set up the big races with monohulls... I delivered the message that the big monoslugs are NOT our safety backup plan!
This was to both the OA and the Beach cat racers.

Beachcats are included in these big PHRF races because I leveraged a request from the J22 fleet to participate in the race. J22's do not meet the PHRF safety standard and so they also needed a waiver.... In the end... the J22 fleet decided against racing but we have had a great run of races.

So far, it has been working.... just a few requests for redress for the monohulls bailing out a cat sailor or two.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248337
05/14/12 10:39 AM
05/14/12 10:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
It would be nearly impossible to create a standard that could be applied to cancel a race. Wind speed, wave height, air temperature, water tempurature, current, etc. all play a factor. How do you create a universal standard? 20 knots in Boca Ciega Bay (protected flat water bay in Florida) in june is probably far different conditions than 20 knots in Hyannis (open ocean in the north east) in November!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248339
05/14/12 10:46 AM
05/14/12 10:46 AM
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pgp Offline
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Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: ksurfer2] #248340
05/14/12 10:47 AM
05/14/12 10:47 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Quote

It would be impossible to create a standard that could be applied to cancel a race.


I agree. It is a difficult issue.
The time to form your current position is now... not after the FUBAR.

I think guidelines are appropriate here... Standards are too much.

The standards are for GEAR... The idea is that the OA can just require at a minimum the Safety at Sea gear list. It solves the problem... of who made the YC the safety guru of beach cat racing.
US Sailing > Class rules > YC rules > your idiocyncratic opinion on "safe"

If you want to know what happens when you DON"T think about this stuff...

See the fall out from the SSA junior disaster.
See the fallout from the Chi to Mac disaster.
Wait for the fallout from the Farloones disaster.
Wait for the fallout from the N2E disaster.

Oh... and it matters because the stand alone insurance hit for the OA running distance races is now up ~1000 bucks or so.... see impact on Islander Reef run/ex Hogsbreath


Last edited by Mark Schneider; 05/14/12 12:17 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248343
05/14/12 10:51 AM
05/14/12 10:51 AM
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Tony_F18 Offline
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I think that ultimately it is the sailor's responsibility to go out, unless it is really extreme (35+ kts).
Some insurance companies have a clause with a maximum wind limit as well, worth checking before racing.

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248344
05/14/12 10:54 AM
05/14/12 10:54 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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My position: The decision to pull the plug is at the discretion of the OA.

You've been given an opinion by several people and you clearly don't agree with it. Do what you're going to do Mark.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248345
05/14/12 10:58 AM
05/14/12 10:58 AM
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pgp Offline
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I think Mark is the messenger here not the decision maker.

Last edited by pgp; 05/14/12 10:59 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: pgp] #248346
05/14/12 11:04 AM
05/14/12 11:04 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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No... more then messenger.

I made the initial proposal on gear standards to move this issue. Bert Rice and Randy Smyth have a draft that is being worked on by the MHC's other member who is on the Safety at Sea Committee.

Gear is just part of the debate.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: David Ingram] #248347
05/14/12 11:13 AM
05/14/12 11:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Quote


My position: The decision to pull the plug is at the discretion of the OA.


So.. if the Miami to Key Largo guys at Miami Yacht club decide to pull the plug on the beachcat start but allow the rest of the fleet to race... you are OK with that?? ....

Or do you think there should be some consensus on guidelines, standards, rules, etc.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 05/14/12 11:14 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248348
05/14/12 11:21 AM
05/14/12 11:21 AM
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catandahalf Offline
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Did I hear my name mentioned? Add Bob Hodges and Jon Farrar as members of the US Sailing Multihull Council Safety Committee.

http://www.gya.org/MultiHull/Multihull.htm takes one to the Gulf Yachting Association Multihull Council web site.

Forgive the old news - I'll get to it...just finished updating my SOARS for the year.

The Safety Recommendations Mark referred to were originaly developed by the GYA MHC. They are available to sailors for review. Your input to the MHC Safety Committee is welcomed. We always pay attention to forehanded measures we might include.

Contact me off forum,

Bert Rice, MHC Safety Committee Chair

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248386
05/15/12 11:37 AM
05/15/12 11:37 AM
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brucat Offline
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There is a placeholder on the May 30 MHC meeting agenda for a discussion on the safety committee report. However, despite numerous requests, I have not received the final draft so I can post it for folks to review prior to the meeting. If that does not happen, don't expect a vote to approve.

Also, we should be acting proactively here, not reactively. We don't need to wait for a bad event and the Coast Guard or US Sailing to require action (see recent activity in California).

The MHC should have a nimble, active safety committee that looks at stuff like the "cool video" and finds ways to communicate useful recommendations to the cat sailors. Note, I said useful recommendations, not onerous requirements.

This is simply the right thing to do, and I'd love to have volunteers come forward to help.

Mike

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248389
05/15/12 11:46 AM
05/15/12 11:46 AM
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pgp Offline
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I volunteer!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: brucat] #248394
05/15/12 12:46 PM
05/15/12 12:46 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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You were provided the recommendations for the AGM in October, but I'll re-send them.

Re: When should the RC pull the plug [Re: Mark Schneider] #248398
05/15/12 01:35 PM
05/15/12 01:35 PM
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Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....

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