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Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 #248976
05/29/12 11:18 AM
05/29/12 11:18 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
Hello guys,

my sailing partner and myself are finally considering an F18 for real.
Budgets are limited of course and I have a strong inclination towards an older Infusion MK-1 and putting the rest of the money into sails myself. But I would value some input on which "old" F18 would be the most bang for the money when considering the following.

1: Reliability in the structure (minimizes breakages)
2: Speed
3: Ease of handling

Budget for the platform + trailer: EUR6600 / US$8300


Thoughts and opinions?

Most performant older F18 design
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 05/29/12 11:07 AM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
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Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248978
05/29/12 11:39 AM
05/29/12 11:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
We just went through this decision process myself last year. Some might argue that the latest hull shapes have a lot to do with the speed potential of the Formula 18s, but I believe most of that potential comes from the mast and sails. From the original Nacra F18 and Hobie Tiger, we've seen a pretty dramatic change in the mast weight and profiles that were coupled with sail design. I think both of these boats would continue to be competitive if they had the newer mast and sail design...but I don't think the math will work out in your favor if you include all of that extra cost.

That said, two of the boats on your list have seen only relatively minor changes from the older version to now and I think are the best value. The older Nacra Infusion and the AHPC Capricorn. Both of these boats have the latest mast and sail configuration and would probably just need a sail update to be completely competitive again. The biggest difference in these boats is the SLDBs (stupidly long daggerboards) which, in my opinion, add only very slightly to the boat's performance.


Jake Kohl
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Jake] #248979
05/29/12 11:47 AM
05/29/12 11:47 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
Hi Jake,

thanks for the comments. I also subscribe to the thought that the rig (sail+masts and their config) is the critical point. Hence my weighting of the question smile

Getting a new mast tube is not that expensive and I am a qualified tinkerer to my sailing partners dismay and relief.. New sails are a given anyway, but they might very well be homemade. (hush)

Considering that you have competed on the NACRA F18, it would be good to get your thoughts on the platforms specifics compared to the newest designs.

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 05/29/12 11:48 AM.
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248981
05/29/12 12:03 PM
05/29/12 12:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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wildtsail  Offline
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Newport, RI
The infusion and the cap don't belong on the same list. Yea the cap was cutting edge at the time and is just like a new boat from the water up, but the hulls do not belong to the current generation of boats which started with the infusion. I also don't think you'd find many of the two at a similar price point.
Overall the infusion should be more competitive, however if you are not sailing in big conditions (waves and wind) very often the Cap is a great choice and can still be an absolute weapon especially in light to medium and flatter water.

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: wildtsail] #248984
05/29/12 12:34 PM
05/29/12 12:34 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by wildtsail
The infusion and the cap don't belong on the same list. Yea the cap was cutting edge at the time and is just like a new boat from the water up, but the hulls do not belong to the current generation of boats which started with the infusion. I also don't think you'd find many of the two at a similar price point.
Overall the infusion should be more competitive, however if you are not sailing in big conditions (waves and wind) very often the Cap is a great choice and can still be an absolute weapon especially in light to medium and flatter water.


The list was set up based on boats I could see on the internet within my budget. In that regard the Capricorn, Hawk, the NACRAs etc all have a place on the list smile
Point about the Cap taken!

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248985
05/29/12 12:49 PM
05/29/12 12:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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You forgot to tell us at what weight you will be racing.
I like the Infusion but I think the Cap's build quality is better.
Dont think you can go wrong with either really, it depends which is in better state etc.
The Infusion is a bit easier to sail though, especially downwind.

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248986
05/29/12 12:51 PM
05/29/12 12:51 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Weight.. Obviously overweight.. Both my sailing partner and myself are big boys. As in big boys with scars in the face which you dont want to mess with wink

Funny that the Cap and Infusion get all the attention so far. What about the Tiger? And the Hawk was always mentioned favourably 5 years ago as the hidden gem?

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 05/29/12 12:52 PM.
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248989
05/29/12 03:00 PM
05/29/12 03:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
Tough question, few straight answers. I think Jake summed it up best with his statements on the rig. Most Tiger's command more than they are really worth (at least asking price, $1 or $2K more often gets you into an early Infusion), and the Tiger rig and foil package is very dated at this point. Don't get me wrong, in the hands of a competitive sailor it will still put up a good showing but the boards are the lowest aspect ratio around and the mast is a teardrop section, not a wing mast. I may be wrong on some of these points, since there were several versions of the Tiger and some have been upgraded with more modern foils and sails.

In direct comparison between an original Nacra F18 and an original Capricorn, the Cap was faster uphill but suffered going downwind. I'm 100% confident the differences were sailor ability, rig tuning and sail choice. I would stay away from an original Nacra F18. The Infusion, as mentioned above, has a modern hull shape and should perform well. It also has amongst the most hull volume of the used boats on the market (more so than the Capricorn and better placement than the Tiger) so is a good choice for the heavier teams. I voted for the Infusion over the Cap primarily because you mentioned big boys. That vote stands if you race in heavier air conditions as well. Otherwise the Cap is a good second choice.

I have no comment about the Hawk as I've never seen nor raced one.

Last edited by samc99us; 05/29/12 03:01 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248990
05/29/12 04:03 PM
05/29/12 04:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Rolf, you might be interested in this F18 that just came on the market:
http://watersport.marktplaats.nl/ca...er-snelle-f18-in-wedstrijd-conditie.html

Its a very unique cat that is still very competitive and comes packed with spares.

Last edited by Tony_F18; 05/29/12 04:26 PM. Reason: Fixed link
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248991
05/29/12 04:13 PM
05/29/12 04:13 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Thanks Tony,

we have heaps of time, not targeting to purchase before fall smile

And the link did not work, which is a good thing!

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248992
05/29/12 05:46 PM
05/29/12 05:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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I've only ever heard people who never owned or raced a Capricorn recommend against one. I loved both of mine - great boat, and particularly great for the money.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #248999
05/29/12 09:47 PM
05/29/12 09:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22
southern germany
S
stampede Offline
stranger
stampede  Offline
stranger
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 22
southern germany
You should take the conditions of your preferred sailing location into consideration. In your profile you are saying "NORWAY west coast" That's the coastline to the open ocean with a lot of rocks just below the waterline, right? The so called "updated" newer plattforms with flat bottom create a lot of lift and lay high on the water compared to the more rounded shape like Tiger and Hawk. So low aspect Daggers, rounded bottom etc. may show some advantage on these conditions. The Tiger is a very robust boat and still competitive in these conditions which are different from lake water racing which is mainly flat water. My crew and i are big boys too. we are aroung 100lbs overweighted compared to average F18 crew weight. This is far more impacting your performance than boat design. Just my 0.02
cheers from germany

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: stampede] #249010
05/30/12 07:29 AM
05/30/12 07:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
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Posts: 893
Buy an older shape Nacra 20, the only boat that is value for money for the bigger guys.

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249014
05/30/12 09:17 AM
05/30/12 09:17 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Conditions vary wildly in this place, and any racing we do will have very variable conditions as well smile

Wayne, the only action there is in this place is in the F18 class. The Tornado would be our clear choice if racing was not our motivation. The T was my first love with catamarans and it is a really nice experience to sail one. Marström tornados are sold for really good prices now!
We sail at 180kg, but that is just a fact and not a decision point when it comes to choosing a class. F18 is the only class with some action.

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 05/30/12 09:18 AM.
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249024
05/30/12 12:35 PM
05/30/12 12:35 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
Only 29 participants in the poll??? Come on guys! smile

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249026
05/30/12 12:46 PM
05/30/12 12:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Tony_F18  Offline
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For big guys the Infusion is a good choice, loads of bouyancy.
Good idea to wait with purchasing till end of the year, that gives you plenty of time to lose 30 kilos! laugh

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249027
05/30/12 12:55 PM
05/30/12 12:55 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
Speaking of weight loss.. I am off to do a jog up the nearest hill. Seriously! See you after my heart attack wink

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jendemsfjellet


And this is where I live: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jendemsfjellet

And the nearest town with a sailing presence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molde

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249028
05/30/12 12:58 PM
05/30/12 12:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Only 29 participants in the poll??? Come on guys! smile


"new C2" wasn't an option....


I'm boatless.
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249031
05/30/12 03:22 PM
05/30/12 03:22 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
That belongs under "other"...

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249033
05/30/12 05:19 PM
05/30/12 05:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I'd say its still not an option as its outside of your stated budget.

My opinion is to go with either the Cap, or the infusion. Those are the two I'd be looking at if I were in the market for a used F18. I'm curious what peoples thoughts are with a lower volume boat with a big boy team. Time for another thread when not tapping **** out on my phone.....


I'm boatless.
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