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Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249037
05/30/12 05:19 PM
05/30/12 05:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
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At 370 combined I still like my Tiger but having sailed the other boats the newer designs tend to carry the weight better.
The biggest thing on the boat is the "Tiller Nut" and the "Sheet Monkey" no matter what the design.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249046
05/31/12 03:20 AM
05/31/12 03:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Take all the boats in the list downwind in a force 5-6 and you will want the Infusion!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: TEAMVMG] #249048
05/31/12 03:39 AM
05/31/12 03:39 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Take all the boats in the list downwind in a force 5-6 and you will want the Infusion!



That is the type of feedback that makes decisions easier. Thanks.

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249051
05/31/12 06:24 AM
05/31/12 06:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
I think as an all round boat in that price range the Infusion is a good option, certainly the capricorn is another good one to look at.

both boats have strong and weak points, It depends on the prevailing conditions where you sail.


________________________
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Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: TEAMVMG] #249055
05/31/12 07:33 AM
05/31/12 07:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Take all the boats in the list downwind in a force 5-6 and you will want the Infusion!


Based on my last Tradewinds regatta sailing with Krantz on my V1 Infusion vs. the newer C2 (flat water, 15-18k breeze), the infusion seems to have slightly better speed upwind and the C2 slightly better speed downwind. I'm gauging this against my performance with Robbie Daniels and Tomko on their C2s. I could out pace Daniels to A-mark on the first leg but would lose more than I gained on the downwind...initially I learned a lot watching him pass me downhill and discovered some errors I was making with my mainsail trim but, once corrected, it still wasn't enough to keep him from gaining more downwind on me than I would gain on him upwind. When we got off the line well, though, Tomko would usually slightly beat us to A out of glorious tacking execution (sight to behold) but I had nothing on him downwind...of course, sail condition and technique play into everything and I'm no pro. With the exception of my raggedy jib, my other sails are new and I have no idea what condition the sails were in on Robbie's boat. Tomko's looked to be pretty spanking new.

With regards to the original Capricorn and the Infusion, I would say that the Infusion is slightly more resistant to putting a bow in downwind but I've only sailed the original Capricorn once (never on the C2). They're both perfectly fast enough that the skill on board will be 98% of the win factor.

That said, after having to do some major structural repairs caused by poor build quality on my 3 year old Infusion, sailing a couple of Capricorns, seeing the Capricorn go through an Alter Cup (as well as the sailing the AHPC Viper in one), I can say that the AHPC brand gets a big thumbs up from me in build and fitment quality.

I've owned Nacras since I started sailing but, if I was in the market again, I would need to go back through my photos of all the work I had to do to fix the poorly mounted daggerboard trunk in my Infusion before I decided what to buy again.


Jake Kohl
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249057
05/31/12 07:46 AM
05/31/12 07:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Speaking of weight loss.. I am off to do a jog up the nearest hill. Seriously! See you after my heart attack wink

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jendemsfjellet


And this is where I live: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jendemsfjellet

And the nearest town with a sailing presence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molde


Neat pictures, Rolf. As my budget will likely never afford a trip to "yonder parts", if you have a photo blog or something showing life, landscape, etc. in your area, be sure to post it...

Our biggest "mountain" in Florida is about 30 meters high (Bock tower?)


Jay

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Jake] #249058
05/31/12 07:48 AM
05/31/12 07:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Jake
I could out pace Daniels to A-mark on the first leg but would lose more than I gained on the downwind...


Sounds like you've been on the A-cat too long smile


Jay

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249062
05/31/12 10:30 AM
05/31/12 10:30 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
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Ventucky Red  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
So I guess a question I have would be; has there ever been talk about setting up “Old School Class” for F-18 racing.

From this discussion; it appears that with the advancement in design many of you feel that a Hobie Tiger, NACRA F-18, etc… are not competitive platforms against the newer generation boats, but are still great boats…

Seems this would be a great way to keep the casual racer involved with out the needed expense of having to have to keep up with the latest and greatest.

Thoughts?

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #249063
05/31/12 10:31 AM
05/31/12 10:31 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway

Quote

Neat pictures, Rolf. As my budget will likely never afford a trip to "yonder parts", if you have a photo blog or something showing life, landscape, etc. in your area, be sure to post it...

Our biggest "mountain" in Florida is about 30 meters high (Bock tower?)



No photoblogs that I am aware of, but here is one which gives a good representation of the coastal landscape. For the mountains I need to find someplace else. This place is a narrow slip of land to live on between steep mountains up to 1900meters and the ocean.

http://elisetheoline.blogspot.com/search/label/vakre%20Fr%C3%A6na (Do NOT fall in love with the girl, she is spoken for)

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249064
05/31/12 01:22 PM
05/31/12 01:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
nice pictures.

I notice in some of the photos your apparel includes something I haven't seen in decades. I believe the English term is "Sweater" or possibly "Jacket".

smile


Jay

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Ventucky Red] #249078
06/01/12 01:55 PM
06/01/12 01:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
J
JACKFLASH Offline
enthusiast
JACKFLASH  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
So I guess a question I have would be; has there ever been talk about setting up “Old School Class” for F-18 racing.

From this discussion; it appears that with the advancement in design many of you feel that a Hobie Tiger, NACRA F-18, etc… are not competitive platforms against the newer generation boats, but are still great boats…

Seems this would be a great way to keep the casual racer involved with out the needed expense of having to have to keep up with the latest and greatest.

Thoughts?


Absolutely not!!! That is the dangerous talk that is helping to divide what is left of the I20 fleet. Besides, I would bet money that if I put Tomko or Mischa on a Tiger and borrowed their boat, they would still whip me. The older boat designs are dated, no doubt, but they can still be competitive in certain conditions. As far as I know the Tiger still enjous a pretty active Tiger One Design class.

Last edited by JACKFLASH; 06/01/12 01:56 PM.

Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: JACKFLASH] #249079
06/01/12 02:42 PM
06/01/12 02:42 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
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Ventucky Red Offline
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Ventucky Red  Offline
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V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Absolutely not!!! That is the dangerous talk that is helping to divide what is left of the I20 fleet. Besides, I would bet money that if I put Tomko or Mischa on a Tiger and borrowed their boat, they would still whip me. The older boat designs are dated, no doubt, but they can still be competitive in certain conditions. As far as I know the Tiger still enjous a pretty active Tiger One Design class.


This is apple to oranges as to what is happening to the Inter/NACRA 20 Class. There you have a bunch of sailors... well maybe two or three owners to be realistic, that want to pull away from the OD class and make this a Formula or an Open Class. And to be frank I don’t blame them for doing this. I ordered a new set of centbaords for my 20 back in December, and from what I understand they are still not available from NACRA….glad to see the factory is 100% behind the fleet and glad I sold the boat last March.

I do agree that you can take a top notch competitor and put them on any platform and they’ll win, and the one design option is always there, but OD is not F-18 sailing and this is where the most action is. Hell I use to watch Brad Lackey show up at our local MX races with an old tired enduro bike and smoke the likes of a Jeff Ward, Rick Johnson etc… back in the day.

Put it in this perspective, you own a 2003 F-18 with better that average sails etc… and you show up at an event where there is a bunch with the latest Infusion, Wildcat, Capicorn, newest sail designs and the other go fast bells and whistles. During the race you constantly finish at the back of the pack and you know you’re better sailor that what your race results state… What do you think is going to go through your head the next time a race comes around?

I know what you’re thinking, time to upgrade if you want to win.. Nope not an option… some of us have mortgages, college & retirement funds, and a life outside of sailing that eats up a good portion of our entertainment dollars. Or sail harder and more often…again revert back to the statement a life outside sailing!

My opinion, this would help build the class, get more turnouts for the races (think entry fees and what it cost to host a regatta) and make it fun for those of us that are casual racers.


Last edited by Ventucky Red; 06/01/12 02:44 PM.
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249089
06/02/12 07:57 AM
06/02/12 07:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
claus Offline
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Posts: 160
Hi Rolf,

I have been sailing a Tiger the last 4 years against newer designs. From my experience, it IS a very nice boat. Locally, we were quite competitive upwind, but I think we would have been a little bit faster downwind with a newer design. With waves, the Tiger just gets deaccelerated by waves hitting the rear crossbar. Also, the newer designs tack and jibe faster.

Regarding your list, I would say the Cap and the Infusion are "new" designs. The C2 improves hull shape over the Cap (which primarily reduces nose diving), the Mk2 only adds the daggerboards and some stiffness.

From your list, and having in mind your weight, I would recommend the Infusion. I have switched to a C2 and I am very happy for the moment.

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249099
06/02/12 01:08 PM
06/02/12 01:08 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Hi Claus,

thanks for your input!
It can be debated wether the Cap and Infusion can be called an "old" design. The reason I put them on the list is that they are now dropping in price to a level I can afford smile

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249100
06/02/12 03:45 PM
06/02/12 03:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
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+31NL
Rolf, what does this mean for your F16 project?
Is it finished yet?

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #249102
06/03/12 05:56 AM
06/03/12 05:56 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
We put on the foredecks for both hulls last week. Planning to drill beams/beam seats and make the setup waterproof the coming week. It is still happening.

We are targeting to purchase an F18 the coming fall after the F18 season.

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 06/03/12 05:57 AM.
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: Ventucky Red] #250272
06/29/12 08:50 AM
06/29/12 08:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 4
F
fa1321 Offline
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fa1321  Offline
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F

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Absolutely not!!! That is the dangerous talk that is helping to divide what is left of the I20 fleet. Besides, I would bet money that if I put Tomko or Mischa on a Tiger and borrowed their boat, they would still whip me. The older boat designs are dated, no doubt, but they can still be competitive in certain conditions. As far as I know the Tiger still enjous a pretty active Tiger One Design class.


This is apple to oranges as to what is happening to the Inter/NACRA 20 Class. There you have a bunch of sailors... well maybe two or three owners to be realistic, that want to pull away from the OD class and make this a Formula or an Open Class. And to be frank I don’t blame them for doing this. I ordered a new set of centbaords for my 20 back in December, and from what I understand they are still not available from NACRA….glad to see the factory is 100% behind the fleet and glad I sold the boat last March.

I do agree that you can take a top notch competitor and put them on any platform and they’ll win, and the one design option is always there, but OD is not F-18 sailing and this is where the most action is. Hell I use to watch Brad Lackey show up at our local MX races with an old tired enduro bike and smoke the likes of a Jeff Ward, Rick Johnson etc… back in the day.

Put it in this perspective, you own a 2003 F-18 with better that average sails etc… and you show up at an event where there is a bunch with the latest Infusion, Wildcat, Capicorn, newest sail designs and the other go fast bells and whistles. During the race you constantly finish at the back of the pack and you know you’re better sailor that what your race results state… What do you think is going to go through your head the next time a race comes around?

I know what you’re thinking, time to upgrade if you want to win.. Nope not an option… some of us have mortgages, college & retirement funds, and a life outside of sailing that eats up a good portion of our entertainment dollars. Or sail harder and more often…again revert back to the statement a life outside sailing!

My opinion, this would help build the class, get more turnouts for the races (think entry fees and what it cost to host a regatta) and make it fun for those of us that are casual racers.

Yep it seems the portsmouth rating could be adjusted for allot of boats. On the last leg of the Gt300 team Chums on an I-20 was quoted as miles ahead of the of the group but was passed by Cirrus R F18. The rating system shows the I20 at .593 and the F18 at .624 yet with a few miles ahead and according the numbers a faster boat Cirrus R beat him by 13 minutes? I did not hear of any boat problems with Chums and they have sailed the GT for years and leg 4 is Lee's home port and he is very skilled sailor so what happened?
If the newer F18 were the same as older one there would be no reason to buy a new one. So people with more money have an advantage its does not mean you will take first if you buy the newest F18 sailing is a skill even an art.
I almost forgot people are having trouble locating boards for the Infusions so keep NACRA's superior customer service in mind when narrowing down your choices.

Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: fa1321] #250328
06/29/12 07:17 PM
06/29/12 07:17 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
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Ventucky Red Offline
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Originally Posted by fa1321
Yep it seems the Portsmouth rating could be adjusted for allot of boats. On the last leg of the Gt300 team Chums on an I-20 was quoted as miles ahead of the of the group but was passed by Cirrus R F18. The rating system shows the I20 at .593 and the F18 at .624 yet with a few miles ahead and according the numbers a faster boat Cirrus R beat him by 13 minutes? I did not hear of any boat problems with Chums and they have sailed the GT for years and leg 4 is Lee's home port and he is very skilled sailor so what happened?

If the newer F18 were the same as older one there would be no reason to buy a new one. So people with more money have an advantage its does not mean you will take first if you buy the newest F18 sailing is a skill even an art.


I am not advocating changing the Portsmouth ratings for any boat.. If the boat owners want to do this they can do so by sending the race results to US Sailing and ask for a redress on the rating as they will have the data to hack it up.

I know there is a pissing contest going on now with the NACRA 20 vs the Open 20 class to where the Open 20 folks want the same rating as the NACRA 20 while sailing with modified sail plans etc… Like I said a pissing contest!

Regarding distance racing, the DP-N rating is not the best, or to say it better, it is useless for distance racing. But this is my opinion! If I were king for the day I would look at adopting something like the SCHRS with stick adherence to the sail/boat/foil/bowsprit/rudder measurements

Getting back to where I was going with this is the possibility of setting up an Old School Class for the F-18. Maybe there is one that I don't know about, but I just don't see the need right now to convernt from a teardrop to a wing mast with the latest and greatest set of sails to be bit more equal to what is out there these days.

Last edited by Ventucky Red; 06/29/12 07:17 PM.
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: fa1321] #250398
07/01/12 06:03 PM
07/01/12 06:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Todd_Sails  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Originally Posted by fa1321
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Absolutely not!!! That is the dangerous talk that is helping to divide what is left of the I20 fleet. Besides, I would bet money that if I put Tomko or Mischa on a Tiger and borrowed their boat, they would still whip me. The older boat designs are dated, no doubt, but they can still be competitive in certain conditions. As far as I know the Tiger still enjous a pretty active Tiger One Design class.


This is apple to oranges as to what is happening to the Inter/NACRA 20 Class. There you have a bunch of sailors... well maybe two or three owners to be realistic, that want to pull away from the OD class and make this a Formula or an Open Class. And to be frank I don’t blame them for doing this. I ordered a new set of centbaords for my 20 back in December, and from what I understand they are still not available from NACRA….glad to see the factory is 100% behind the fleet and glad I sold the boat last March.

I do agree that you can take a top notch competitor and put them on any platform and they’ll win, and the one design option is always there, but OD is not F-18 sailing and this is where the most action is. Hell I use to watch Brad Lackey show up at our local MX races with an old tired enduro bike and smoke the likes of a Jeff Ward, Rick Johnson etc… back in the day.

Put it in this perspective, you own a 2003 F-18 with better that average sails etc… and you show up at an event where there is a bunch with the latest Infusion, Wildcat, Capicorn, newest sail designs and the other go fast bells and whistles. During the race you constantly finish at the back of the pack and you know you’re better sailor that what your race results state… What do you think is going to go through your head the next time a race comes around?

I know what you’re thinking, time to upgrade if you want to win.. Nope not an option… some of us have mortgages, college & retirement funds, and a life outside of sailing that eats up a good portion of our entertainment dollars. Or sail harder and more often…again revert back to the statement a life outside sailing!

My opinion, this would help build the class, get more turnouts for the races (think entry fees and what it cost to host a regatta) and make it fun for those of us that are casual racers.

Yep it seems the portsmouth rating could be adjusted for allot of boats. On the last leg of the Gt300 team Chums on an I-20 was quoted as miles ahead of the of the group but was passed by Cirrus R F18. The rating system shows the I20 at .593 and the F18 at .624 yet with a few miles ahead and according the numbers a faster boat Cirrus R beat him by 13 minutes? I did not hear of any boat problems with Chums and they have sailed the GT for years and leg 4 is Lee's home port and he is very skilled sailor so what happened?
If the newer F18 were the same as older one there would be no reason to buy a new one. So people with more money have an advantage its does not mean you will take first if you buy the newest F18 sailing is a skill even an art.
I almost forgot people are having trouble locating boards for the Infusions so keep NACRA's superior customer service in mind when narrowing down your choices.


You seem to also be assuming that both boats, even when only a few hundred meters apart, are in the same breeze.
The Tx. gulf coast, and especially Leg 4 which ends on what we called 'East Beach' for 20+ years have very fluky varied breezes.

Did JOhn T. have boat problems?, or was he in some different winds. I dunno, I didn't do GT300 this yarn, dammit.
Lee and David had a great race, way to go Lee!


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Poll: Most performance from an "old" Formula 18 [Re: fa1321] #250667
07/10/12 07:50 AM
07/10/12 07:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Sorry for responding so late.
Quote
The rating system shows the I20 at .593 and the F18 at .624 yet with a few miles ahead and according the numbers a faster boat Cirrus R beat him by 13 minutes? I did not hear of any boat problems with Chums and they have sailed the GT for years and leg 4 is Lee's home port and he is very skilled sailor so what happened?


When we pulled ahead, we were spinn reaching pretty high in light air. At about the half way point, we were hit with a huge shift with 15 to 20 right on the nose for a while that had us in a tacking war with the Cirrus and a Tiger. The Cirrus could go way higher to weather and rolled us. The Tiger rolled us too until we got things sorted out and got back past them. Then it lightened up a bit and we hugged the beach since the wind was trying to turn 90 degrees to the beach. Then it just got plain light and fluky. We never could make up the loss in the tacking duel with JC and Dalton.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
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