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Tacking and Jibing from trapeze #251257
08/09/12 04:02 AM
08/09/12 04:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
The Netherlands
Arjan13 Offline OP
journeyman
Arjan13  Offline OP
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Posts: 97
The Netherlands
Hello everyone,

This is my first post, and I hope it's in the right place. We've discovered this forum just a few weeks ago, and maybe this is the best way to find answers to our questions. We sail quit a lot in the evening, and barely meet other sailors on our beach in Holland. (and if we do, not all of them are that experienced, and only sail with the sun hihg in the sky) Also please forgive me my English, I'm not too familliar yet with all the terms.

We've started a few years back with an old Nacra 5.0, and after some larger damage traded it in, against our current boat; a Nacra Inter 18 from '97. After getting used to all "new stuff" like dagger boards, mast rotating system and so on, we sail rather nice now, up to a wind of around 12-14 kn. Our challenge start when the wind is a little stronger and we're both out in the trapeze. (we're a team of only 150 kg, so we're rather soon in this position) We do not know for sure how we should handle a tack and/or jibe in the right order. We're sailing normally with the joystick in the hand of the helmsmen, and the main sheet in the hand of the mate.

For example when we're approaching a jibe we've tried to sail into the turn with full power, and wait untill the power is out of the sail before coming in, and we've tried giving the mainsheet some slack, come in a little earlier, but this seems a little risky with the harder windforce. In between seems not possible due to the high outward force while turning? Could anybody please tell us (just short) the right order for jibing as well as tacking, or tell me where we can read about this topic?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Arjan13] #251258
08/09/12 06:41 AM
08/09/12 06:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
enthusiast
Baltic  Offline
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Kiel, Germany
Concerning jibing: don't you have a spinnaker? the Inter 18 should have one and jibing with a spi is a completely different subject than without.


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Baltic] #251261
08/09/12 08:12 AM
08/09/12 08:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
The Netherlands
Arjan13 Offline OP
journeyman
Arjan13  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
The Netherlands
Yes we have a spi, but untill today we've chosen to keep it in the bag, because this is also a new topic for us. But we have rigged the spi last week, and will try it for the first time any day now (with very low wind)

Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Arjan13] #251262
08/09/12 10:21 AM
08/09/12 10:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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I'll start with the tack. I'm no pro and there are probably faster ways to go about the tack - but if the crew is running the mainsheet and I'm driving, as we enter a point where we think we may tack, the crew will hand me the sheet and I control it at that point until we tack. Sometimes this could be for some time if we are in a tactical position where we may have to tack suddenly (if I'm on the hip of a right away boat but just far enough away that he would have rights to tack, for instance). When I call for the tack, I usually cleat the mainsheet and toss it inboard safely on the trampoline (warning; this in "unprofessional" but it doesn't burn up too much time. It can, however, leave you in a tricky spot if you decide not to tack at that point and now nobody has the mainsheet ;-). I wait for the crew to bend their knees and just barely get their butt on the hull before I start my turn. I start my turn as I come off the wire and I focus hard on not "wiggling" or "bouncing" the rudders through the entire manuever (slows the boat!). I immediately zero in on the mainsheet near the cleat and retake control of it there. I ease about a 8 to 12 inches of mainsheet (depending on conditions - sometimes I ease more in light conditions). I rotate on my feet and a knee at the center of the trampoline facing rearward at the mainsheet blocks as I flip the tiller to the other side. I regrab the mainsheet at the cleat. At this point, the crew should be rehooking to his trapeze line as I move to the outboard end of the new hull bringing the mainsheet with me and bringing it in. With my tail planted on the hull briefly, I give the main another good pull and hold the sheet over my shoulder while I start to zero in on a good heading. The crew grabs the mainsheet ready to pull it again to send it the rest of the way home as I push back out on the wire with them. The crew has some flexibility with the timing of bringing the mainsheet in and can make up for some of my errors...he/she needs to be considerate that I may still be hooking into my trap and doesn't need to play godzilla on the mainsheet until I at least have a footing and am starting to push out on the wire.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Jake] #251264
08/09/12 10:44 AM
08/09/12 10:44 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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West coast of Norway
Here is a more radical way to do a tack

first off, communication in the boat is needed on when to tack/gybe.

Crew is handling the mainsheet all the way.

Helm: "Tacking in 3, 1 - 2 - 3 - Tacking." Starts the tack,
Crew: Sheets in to help the boat to head up.
Helm and crew heads towards the other side, mainsheet is slack.
Crew: On trapeze with main sheeted for acceleration. Crew is responsible for stability.
Helm: Moving into trapeze as it takes longer to flip the tiller behind the mainsheet.

With practice in low/medium wind conditions this can be a very fast way to tack. The key is to communicate and get in synch. A certain amount of trust in the ability of each others is mandatory with this method smile

Gybing from trapze can be done much the same way. Have the crew on trapeze until the tack have started. Then let crew come in with the sheet in hand (this eases the sheets) and just steer trough the gybe. Again, communication, sync and trust is needed, together with some structured training.

Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Jake] #251265
08/09/12 10:45 AM
08/09/12 10:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
on the gybe, you are correct in that you don't want to lose a lot of boatspeed. This can cause a nose-dive when the main flips to the new side and powers up.

Keep the boat moving as best as possible, and make the gybe smooth and relatively quick. Don't head up too high after the gybe or you could face a knockdown, just head high enough to ensure you're on the new gybe and maintain most of your entry boatspeed. As the TWS increases, your gybe angle will decrease.

If you look at some boat wakes, you may even see a slight "S" turn as the boat enters the gybe, passes clew to wind, heads up (maybe 140 degrees to TWD) and gains speed, and then drives down slightly once up to speed.

The spinnaker helps keep boatspeed through a gybe. In light air, you can "float" the spin through the gybe, keeping it full throughout the transistion from one side to the other. In medium and heavy air, the turn is usually too quick to worry about it and you just focus on trimming to the new heading.

Without a spin, it helps to sheet in the traveler while steering through the gybe (to prevent a huge swing of the boom) and immediately ease it out on the other side.

As far as crew positions go, in the gybe you want to try and stay as far back as practical to prevent nosing in to the back of a swell and stopping the boat. In moderate air, it is typical to see crews prepare for a gybe by driving down and coming off the wire to "organize" for the gybe so they may resume quickly on the new heading

Your best bet, however, would be to sail with a more experienced boat and watch how they do things. Or you can sail with one of their crew for individualized instruction.


Jay

Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Jake] #251274
08/10/12 02:50 AM
08/10/12 02:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
The Netherlands
Arjan13 Offline OP
journeyman
Arjan13  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by Jake
I'll start with the tack. I'm no pro and there are probably faster ways to go about the tack - but if the crew is running the mainsheet and I'm driving, as we enter a point where we think we may tack, the crew will hand me the sheet and I control it at that point until we tack. Sometimes this could be for some time if we are in a tactical position where we may have to tack suddenly (if I'm on the hip of a right away boat but just far enough away that he would have rights to tack, for instance). When I call for the tack, I usually cleat the mainsheet and toss it inboard safely on the trampoline (warning; this in "unprofessional" but it doesn't burn up too much time. It can, however, leave you in a tricky spot if you decide not to tack at that point and now nobody has the mainsheet ;-). I wait for the crew to bend their knees and just barely get their butt on the hull before I start my turn. I start my turn as I come off the wire and I focus hard on not "wiggling" or "bouncing" the rudders through the entire manuever (slows the boat!). I immediately zero in on the mainsheet near the cleat and retake control of it there. I ease about a 8 to 12 inches of mainsheet (depending on conditions - sometimes I ease more in light conditions). I rotate on my feet and a knee at the center of the trampoline facing rearward at the mainsheet blocks as I flip the tiller to the other side. I regrab the mainsheet at the cleat. At this point, the crew should be rehooking to his trapeze line as I move to the outboard end of the new hull bringing the mainsheet with me and bringing it in. With my tail planted on the hull briefly, I give the main another good pull and hold the sheet over my shoulder while I start to zero in on a good heading. The crew grabs the mainsheet ready to pull it again to send it the rest of the way home as I push back out on the wire with them. The crew has some flexibility with the timing of bringing the mainsheet in and can make up for some of my errors...he/she needs to be considerate that I may still be hooking into my trap and doesn't need to play godzilla on the mainsheet until I at least have a footing and am starting to push out on the wire.


Thanks for your reply! In many way's your description looks like how we do the jibe. But, if we come in without giving slack on the sheet, we have the idea that we'll flip? (of course when there is a moderate/ heavy air) That is not the case? Do I understand correctly you ease on the mainsheet when your on the end of your turn?

And I'm sorry This is a language issue), but what means "zero in" exactly?

Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #251275
08/10/12 03:01 AM
08/10/12 03:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
The Netherlands
Arjan13 Offline OP
journeyman
Arjan13  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Here is a more radical way to do a tack

first off, communication in the boat is needed on when to tack/gybe.

Crew is handling the mainsheet all the way.

Helm: "Tacking in 3, 1 - 2 - 3 - Tacking." Starts the tack,
Crew: Sheets in to help the boat to head up.
Helm and crew heads towards the other side, mainsheet is slack.
Crew: On trapeze with main sheeted for acceleration. Crew is responsible for stability.
Helm: Moving into trapeze as it takes longer to flip the tiller behind the mainsheet.

With practice in low/medium wind conditions this can be a very fast way to tack. The key is to communicate and get in synch. A certain amount of trust in the ability of each others is mandatory with this method smile

Gybing from trapze can be done much the same way. Have the crew on trapeze until the tack have started. Then let crew come in with the sheet in hand (this eases the sheets) and just steer trough the gybe. Again, communication, sync and trust is needed, together with some structured training.


This sounds nice, but I think you have assumed that we have a self tacking jib? (unfortunately that isn't the case yet, but is on our list for next season)

Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Arjan13] #251277
08/10/12 04:58 AM
08/10/12 04:58 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
You need a selftacker. It is a different world to sail and race with smile

Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Arjan13] #251278
08/10/12 07:48 AM
08/10/12 07:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
You shouldn't be gybing on the trapeze without spinnaker. get the boat running downwind with both crew sat on the hull.


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Arjan13] #251279
08/10/12 08:07 AM
08/10/12 08:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Arjan13
Originally Posted by Jake
I'll start with the tack. I'm no pro and there are probably faster ways to go about the tack - but if the crew is running the mainsheet and I'm driving, as we enter a point where we think we may tack, the crew will hand me the sheet and I control it at that point until we tack. Sometimes this could be for some time if we are in a tactical position where we may have to tack suddenly (if I'm on the hip of a right away boat but just far enough away that he would have rights to tack, for instance). When I call for the tack, I usually cleat the mainsheet and toss it inboard safely on the trampoline (warning; this in "unprofessional" but it doesn't burn up too much time. It can, however, leave you in a tricky spot if you decide not to tack at that point and now nobody has the mainsheet ;-). I wait for the crew to bend their knees and just barely get their butt on the hull before I start my turn. I start my turn as I come off the wire and I focus hard on not "wiggling" or "bouncing" the rudders through the entire manuever (slows the boat!). I immediately zero in on the mainsheet near the cleat and retake control of it there. I ease about a 8 to 12 inches of mainsheet (depending on conditions - sometimes I ease more in light conditions). I rotate on my feet and a knee at the center of the trampoline facing rearward at the mainsheet blocks as I flip the tiller to the other side. I regrab the mainsheet at the cleat. At this point, the crew should be rehooking to his trapeze line as I move to the outboard end of the new hull bringing the mainsheet with me and bringing it in. With my tail planted on the hull briefly, I give the main another good pull and hold the sheet over my shoulder while I start to zero in on a good heading. The crew grabs the mainsheet ready to pull it again to send it the rest of the way home as I push back out on the wire with them. The crew has some flexibility with the timing of bringing the mainsheet in and can make up for some of my errors...he/she needs to be considerate that I may still be hooking into my trap and doesn't need to play godzilla on the mainsheet until I at least have a footing and am starting to push out on the wire.


Thanks for your reply! In many way's your description looks like how we do the jibe. But, if we come in without giving slack on the sheet, we have the idea that we'll flip? (of course when there is a moderate/ heavy air) That is not the case? Do I understand correctly you ease on the mainsheet when your on the end of your turn?

And I'm sorry This is a language issue), but what means "zero in" exactly?


No problem..."zero in" means to fine tune the heading of the boat to the new course to make sure I'm not sailing too high or too low.

I believe the phrase "zero in" comes from machining where you set the zero point measurement by making fine adjustments so the dials read zero and you are starting for a very precise position.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Jake] #251280
08/10/12 08:59 AM
08/10/12 08:59 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
I thought "zero in" came from gunnery where you zero in the targeting system on the target to calibrate the targeting system?

For machining I always found actual measurements more accurate than the dials wink


Yes, I am a nerd and proud member of the nitpocker association..

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 08/10/12 09:00 AM.
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Arjan13] #251281
08/10/12 09:34 AM
08/10/12 09:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
In both maneuvers ( more so for jibing) try to keep your boat speed up. Lots of folks think doing it slower is safer but it is quite the opposite because of apparent wind and righting moment issues. Slow is dangerous as well as...slow.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #251283
08/10/12 10:17 AM
08/10/12 10:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
I thought "zero in" came from gunnery where you zero in the targeting system on the target to calibrate the targeting system?

For machining I always found actual measurements more accurate than the dials wink


Yes, I am a nerd and proud member of the nitpocker association..


That would make more sense!


Jake Kohl
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Jake] #251284
08/10/12 11:19 AM
08/10/12 11:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
The term "Zero in" probably has other meanings, but in artillery or firearm disciplines it has to do with adjusting the aiming system to hit a particular target. This can be done either by "walking the round" (reading where rounds hit and making adjustments), "holdover" (aiming the sight above/below target based on prior experience), or by various computations (it's all Newtonian physics)

For instance, a call to set a 200 meter zero would dictate you set your scope or sighting system to the settings (declination, windage, elevation, etc) which would (through prior knowledge/practice/computation) guide the given munition to a particular spot 200 meters away.

Other trivia (easy) - where did the term "Whole 9 yards" come from?


Jay

Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #251286
08/10/12 12:51 PM
08/10/12 12:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
The term "Zero in" probably has other meanings, but in artillery or firearm disciplines it has to do with adjusting the aiming system to hit a particular target. This can be done either by "walking the round" (reading where rounds hit and making adjustments), "holdover" (aiming the sight above/below target based on prior experience), or by various computations (it's all Newtonian physics)

For instance, a call to set a 200 meter zero would dictate you set your scope or sighting system to the settings (declination, windage, elevation, etc) which would (through prior knowledge/practice/computation) guide the given munition to a particular spot 200 meters away.

Other trivia (easy) - where did the term "Whole 9 yards" come from?


27' munitions belts.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #251322
08/13/12 01:16 PM
08/13/12 01:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

27' munitions belts.


Our current "No Prize" winner. didn't take long either...

How about "three sheets to the wind"?

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 08/13/12 01:18 PM.

Jay

Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Arjan13] #251327
08/13/12 02:37 PM
08/13/12 02:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Had to google that one and it says a "vessel with loosed sheets" or some such. I'm not sure how you get 3 of 'em though. How about "cold enough to freeze the balls off of a brass monkey"?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: Arjan13] #251328
08/13/12 02:45 PM
08/13/12 02:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
Ships cannon balls were stored in stacks in dishes called brass monkeys. The brass monkeys filled with water, when it froze and expanded the cannon balls would roll off onto the deck.


"FLASH IN THE PAN"?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Tacking and Jibing from trapeze [Re: TEAMVMG] #251329
08/13/12 02:48 PM
08/13/12 02:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
J
jkkartz1 Offline
addict
jkkartz1  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
Some of the old guns held the powder in what was called a pan. When it went off accidently, there was a Flash in the Pan.

Maybe?

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