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New weight categories, effective now. #216273
07/21/10 02:24 PM
07/21/10 02:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Hi Folks -

Another issue that I haven't seen discussed (which surprises me) is the new weight classification that came out of the World Council meeting in Erquy.

Quote
Crew weight change submission (Florence Delory).
Change actual class rules crew limitations C.3.2 (a) (3) by :
• Crew between 135 kg and 150 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to half the difference between their actual weight and 150 kg.
• Crew between 130 kg and 135 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to the difference between their actual weight and 135 kg + 7,5 kg.
The proposal is modified as follow before the vote : The crew weight change will be in force as experimentation for all events from July 2010 until December 2011.

The proposal is voted and accepted
Voted YES: GBR (6), IRL (3), HUN (3), ESP (4), FRA (18), BEL (12), GER (14): 60 votes
Voted NO : USA (8), NED (16), Italy (14) : 38 votes


This rule is in effect for the Championship regatta in Racine.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #216274
07/21/10 02:43 PM
07/21/10 02:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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The minutes haven't been finalized so only those that were there know about it.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: David Ingram] #216277
07/21/10 03:18 PM
07/21/10 03:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Ah. Well, now it is out there. Those of you making plans for Racine, make note. Much more headache for the folks at weigh-in than for any competitor. Guess we need to update the weight chart inside the scales case. ;-)


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #216294
07/21/10 11:47 PM
07/21/10 11:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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uk
Why more head ache at the weigh in?
Competitors register, get weighed and the the weights are posted on the notice board. What's different?
Its up to the sailors to decide what size rig they are using and carry the right amount of lead.
The new ruling just means that less crews have to use the small sails


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: TEAMVMG] #216296
07/22/10 01:36 AM
07/22/10 01:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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So a 130kg crew has to carry 12,5 KGs of lead when using the large jib+spin? (135-130+7,5).

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: Tony_F18] #216316
07/22/10 07:24 AM
07/22/10 07:24 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 96
Budapest, Hungary, Europe
CatSailingHu Offline
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CatSailingHu  Offline
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Budapest, Hungary, Europe
Yes.


Sanyi
Nacra Infusion
www.catsailing.hu
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: CatSailingHu] #216326
07/22/10 08:11 AM
07/22/10 08:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Hi Paul -

Maybe just more headache for me, then. I had the "old" way sorted out in my mind, and my neurological pathways are becoming calcified. From another angle, someone who shows up with 12kgs will have to be creative to meet the rule on placement...

I raced for a couple of seasons at 130kg on the small sails very competitively. I disagreed with the reasons presented for the change, but thems the breaks - the vote is now history, and barring any aberrant race results in the next year or so, this will probably become permanent.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #223454
11/06/10 01:09 PM
11/06/10 01:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
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Branford, CT
Do I have this Correct?

Weight(Kg)/Sail/Corrector Weights
115-130/small/half the difference between weight and 130 Kg
130-140/small/none
130-135/large/half the difference between weight and 135 + 7.5
135-115/large/half the difference between weight and 150
150+/large/none

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #223996
11/12/10 03:28 PM
11/12/10 03:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 10
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pinax Offline
stranger
pinax  Offline
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P

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 10
hi guys--

I'm still wrapping my head around this and hoping someone can clarify.
Quote
Crew weight change submission (Florence Delory).
Change actual class rules crew limitations C.3.2 (a) (3) by :
• Crew between 135 kg and 150 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to half the difference between their actual weight and 150 kg.
• Crew between 130 kg and 135 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to the difference between their actual weight and 135 kg + 7,5 kg.
I've reread this about a dozen times and for the life of me can't figure out what the point is in introducing the 135 kg threshold. My math sucks, but can't you just collapse both of these bullet points into one:

Crew between 130 kg and 150 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to half the difference between their actual weight and 150 kg.

Why bother with the 130-135 interval? Doesn't it all amount to the same thing? What am I missing?

I'd like to get confirmation on summary like rhodysail. Here's what I'm reading though:

Weight — Jib/Spinnaker Size — Corrector Weight

< 115 — You don't sail.
115-130 — small sails — half of distance to 130
130-140 OPTION 1 — small sails — no weight
130-140 OPTION 2 — large sails — half of distance to 150
140-150 — large sails — half of distance to 150
> 150 — large sails — no weight


C.3.2 (b) (2) has not been stricken from the rules. The revised C.3.2 (b) (3)—the meeting minutes mistakenly identify the changed rule as C.3.2 (a) (3), but it's obvious what they mean—just opens up an alternative for the 130-140 interval (with a bunch of unnecessary gobbledegook about 135...).

Non?

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: pinax] #224007
11/12/10 06:22 PM
11/12/10 06:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
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pinax Offline
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pinax  Offline
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Never mind. I guess my English sucks too. I'm thinking about what it might cost me to get a secondhand Tiger. So I'm not up-to-date on the class rules. And being on the light end of the scale I'm trying to understand whether I need to factor in the cost of a brand new small jib and kite.

This thread suggests that small jib & kite are no longer options unless crew weight comes in under 130 (i.e., the new proposed rule really replaces C.3.2 (b) (2 and 3), even though that's not exactly what the minutes say. The breakdown is then:

< 115 — You don't sail.
115-130 — small sails + up to 7.5 kg of lead
130-135 — large sails + 7.5-12.5 kg of lead
135-150 — large sails + up to 7.5 kg of lead
> 150 — large sails — no weight


That is a headache.

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: pinax] #224010
11/12/10 06:30 PM
11/12/10 06:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Wilmington,NC
Rhodysail has part of it wrong. Crew 130 -135 has to carry the actual weight between 130 and 135 (not half) and then 7.5 kg. If you weigh 130kg you need to add 5kg+7.5kg=12.5 to use the large sails or use the small sails and no weight.

• Crew between 130 kg and 135 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to the difference between their actual weight and 135 kg + 7,5 kg.

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: Dlennard] #224017
11/12/10 07:47 PM
11/12/10 07:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Hi Pinax -

The rule was passed partly on the idea that lighter crews buying used boats (with big sails) did not have the budget to buy new small sails. You always have the option to use small sails at ANY weight category.

One of the reasons the US Class opposed this rule in July was because it adds confusion... obviously so...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #224028
11/12/10 10:34 PM
11/12/10 10:34 PM
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pinax Offline
stranger
pinax  Offline
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Thanks, John. Hence the repeated "may use" instead of "shall use"... Hah! It's all crystal now!

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #251563
08/21/12 10:20 PM
08/21/12 10:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Bump...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #251770
08/28/12 06:54 PM
08/28/12 06:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 24
FDUB flyers Offline
stranger
FDUB flyers  Offline
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Is this still in effect for the 2012 F18 Worlds in Long Beach, California?

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252528
09/20/12 10:52 AM
09/20/12 10:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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rhodysail  Offline
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Posts: 894
Branford, CT
After last weeks racing at the worlds I'm wondering if the crew weights are of any benefit at all to the class.

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252531
09/20/12 03:52 PM
09/20/12 03:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
How so, Bob?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: rhodysail] #252551
09/21/12 09:32 AM
09/21/12 09:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
R
rexdenton Offline
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rexdenton  Offline
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The weight advantage of crews is repeatedly reflected in the results during drifters. Its driving combined crew weights to minimum weights. Most I have spoken with think the changes suck.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: rexdenton] #252558
09/21/12 06:02 PM
09/21/12 06:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
R
rexdenton Offline
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rexdenton  Offline
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In fact, is there any way to get the crew weights from the world's? The sample size may be large enough to correlate with wind speed to see just how bad the big teams are getting hit in the light stuff


Nacra F18 #856
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252567
09/22/12 09:36 AM
09/22/12 09:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Baltic  Offline
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Kiel, Germany
... just out of curiousity: when you are at the border between small and large sails, are you allowed to change the sails with the appropriate weights during a regatta? Like small sails on a windy day, large sails at low winds?


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
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