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Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252568
09/22/12 11:48 AM
09/22/12 11:48 AM
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california
F-18 5150 Offline
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As a heavy team we suffered the first day and when the wind piped up we started making up places.
Day one was light and shifty we were 2nd or third from the back in 56-53-53.
Day two 57 lighter then the wind built and we were 53-46.
Day three wind was on we were 46 and 25th when we bit it downwind on leg 5 of 7.
At 370 the wind is my friend.
I was also carrying 6.1 kilos because my platform is light. There is a rule that could change. I'm already carrying 40 pounds extra can I get a break on the 13 pounds for the light boat.


Richard Vilvens
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PSA Capricorn USA
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Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252570
09/22/12 05:07 PM
09/22/12 05:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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Long Beach, California
We have a complete measurer's report from Worlds that includes boat and crew weights along with correctors. I'll figure out how to post it.

As far as changing sails during an event - verboten. Can't do that without damage that is shown to the Jury, and they approve/disapprove equipment changes. That was seriously glossed over in Long Beach. We're not even supposed to change equipment in a weekend regatta.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: F-18 5150] #252583
09/23/12 11:31 AM
09/23/12 11:31 AM
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dr5e14w Offline
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We weighed in at 140 kgs. 10 kgs underweight. We showed our most consistent results in the gold fleet on the windiest day. Granted it wasn't overly windy so I'm not sure that it is a great indicator of light weight crews in windy conditions. Never more than about 18 knots. If it had blown 25 we probably would have gone backwards upwind. Just not enough skill to compensate for the lighter weight. We also suffered in the light wind races on the last two days thanks to poor decision making. Our weight savings was not close to offsetting poor tactics and decision making. That's my two cents.

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252585
09/23/12 01:57 PM
09/23/12 01:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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1st Place - FRA 36. Boat, 177kg, crew 158kg.
2nd Place - NED 2. Boat 180kg, crew 160kg.
3rd Place - SUI 1. Boat 180kg, crew 160kg.
4th Place - NED 007. Boat 187kg, crew 159kg.
5th Place - NED 1933. Boat 179kg, crew 161kg.
6th Place - NED 3. Boat 180kg, crew 155kg.
7th Place - AUS 888. Boat 187kg, crew 160kg.
8th Place - SWE 7. Boat 180kg, crew 154 kg.
9th Place - FRA 004. Boat 187kg, crew 158kg.
10th Place - USA 11. Boat 177kg, crew 154kg.

It should be evident that no top teams sailed light. In fact, you don't get any crew corrector weight until 13th (BEL 888, crew 149kg). The top USA team carrying crew weight was USA 90 (crew 142kg, 33rd Place). Only one team sailed with the small sail plan (USA 1238, crew 133kg, 45th Place, Silver Fleet).

As for conditions, we had mostly light to moderate breeze. We had one race of 19 knots sustained. We had two races at less than 8 knots sustained. We had a variety of sea states.

Bottom line for me - you can't sail light in this class.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252591
09/23/12 06:47 PM
09/23/12 06:47 PM
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Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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I absolutely agree with John- being light is a disadvantage in this class, especially on long courses and reach legs. We sailed worlds at 142 kg and with big sails. While we did pretty well on the light first day, and held on to our spot in Gold fleet on the second day, racing in breeze in the Gold fleet was very difficult. I feel that we learned a lot about how to depower and put the bow down while in Long Beach, but still lacked upwind boatspeed.

After watching Robbie Daniels and Chris Prentice get third at a light air Canadian Nationals, I believe that in very light breeze (both hulls in the water), being heavy doesn't hurt.

Where being light does help is in marginal conditions where a light team can power up and fly a hull earlier than the heavier teams, but this is a pretty narrow band.

If we sail worlds next year, I definitely want to be heavier!


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252638
09/24/12 12:28 PM
09/24/12 12:28 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Thanks, John...but...
I appreciate the effort, but such a summary provides no real correlate with respect to overall performance and wind conditions. The data you provided is standard deviation of only +/- 2.7 Kg on an n=10 without any variable correlate of 'wind speed'.

To do the analysis properly, all races andall competitors along with wind conditions need to be evaluated relative to overall weight of all crews. In addition, we would bin each characteristic with overall skill, say intenational rankings vs the also-rans. Second, this would have to be compared with combined crew weights approaching 180 Kg (in extremum) to differentiate whether or not the boat can be sailed both heavy and competively in lighter conditions to evaluate the 'treatment effect' of added weight. Otherwise, your posted answer is only a 'fait accomplis', and unsubstantiated by fact from the standpoint of the original question.

Last edited by rexdenton; 09/24/12 12:33 PM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: rexdenton] #252640
09/24/12 12:47 PM
09/24/12 12:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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Or you could sail a bit in the class at a variety of weights on several platforms and in a variety of conditions and venues with a variety of skippers and begin to draw some conclusions. That's more fun, IMO. wink

Rex, You seem to have already decided that light teams have an unfair advantage. If you have the inclination, I'm happy to email you the regatta report from the measurer (Excel format) and the complete Sailwave file, from which you can glean the recorded wind speeds. However, it would be pretty easy to poke holes in any analysis - second-row starts, sea state, fouls and cluttered gates, older v newer sails... the variables are endless, really. I don't have a driving need to persuade you (or anyone else) to agree with my conclusion. The discussion actually makes for good bar-room debriefs.

ps - your edited post is much more conversational. Thanks for taking the edge off.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #252641
09/24/12 12:55 PM
09/24/12 12:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
If we sail worlds next year, I definitely want to be heavier!


Unfortunately for me, even though I put on eight pounds for the ABYC event, I felt sluggy and slow - fitness was up, but I felt much more agile at a trimmer weight during a season on the H16. I can't get much bigger, and it isn't optimal to have 200+ pounds in the skipper position. I think I need to go back to driving. That's the cushy spot on the boat, anyway. grin


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252645
09/24/12 01:19 PM
09/24/12 01:19 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Or you could sail a bit in the class at a variety of weights on several platforms and in a variety of conditions and venues with a variety of skippers and begin to draw some conclusions. That's more fun, IMO. wink

Rex, You seem to have already decided that light teams have an unfair advantage. If you have the inclination, I'm happy to email you the regatta report from the measurer (Excel format) and the complete Sailwave file, from which you can glean the recorded wind speeds. However, it would be pretty easy to poke holes in any analysis - second-row starts, sea state, fouls and cluttered gates, older v newer sails... the variables are endless, really. I don't have a driving need to persuade you (or anyone else) to agree with my conclusion. The discussion actually makes for good bar-room debriefs.

ps - your edited post is much more conversational. Thanks for taking the edge off.


Well I actively try to take the edge off, but when challenged with a BS conclusion, I am paid handsomely and am given latitude to be far less diplomatic with numbers and conclusions with people holding advanced degrees in medicine and biology... I'd gladly take that data and work on it in my spare time for an unbiased opinion.

We are not very good, but at a combined weight of 400+ lbs (...to qualify that, my 19 yo nationally ranked swimming/triathlon champion son and I wear the exact ame sized clothes...), I do question whether heavy teams can be competitive in light air on the F18. Evidence of that remains anecdotal until tested. I wouldn't say it is a conclusion, but I have spoken with 4 experienced heavier teams that feel the rules are geared toward success of teams at the light end of the range. Knowing the relationship is a benefit to the competition of the class, as it will drive enforcement of such things as the oft ignored weigh-ins, and the minimum wind speed criteria for events.

Last edited by rexdenton; 09/24/12 01:22 PM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252646
09/24/12 01:22 PM
09/24/12 01:22 PM
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Everybody likes an excuse for why they suck. Don't feel bad, I blame my suckage to a mild level of retardation.


I'm boatless.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #252650
09/24/12 01:43 PM
09/24/12 01:43 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Everybody likes an excuse for why they suck. Don't feel bad, I blame my suckage to a mild level of retardation.


I willingly admit, and have become one with my suckiness. Just forming a rationale for getting out. Too many things stacked against success provides diminishing returns on the value proposition. It's just that basic.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: rexdenton] #252655
09/24/12 02:06 PM
09/24/12 02:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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John Williams  Offline OP
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Rex, are you really on a Nacra F18? I'm sure you've seen the leap forward that designs took in about 2005 that has carried through to today... volume has increased dramatically with each iteration and the power in the rig has matched pace. Your team weight on a Tiger would yield very different results than your weight on designs that have come out this year or even last. The incremental improvements are small year-to-year, but cumulatively, they're remarkable. The good part of that is that you don't need a brand new boat to take advantage of increased volume and power for your weight range. Note that teams around 150kg did very well on Tigers at F18 Worlds (IMO).

Que the ratings discussion... yes, Virginia, the rating has stayed the same as the boat has gotten faster over time. Not my fault, and I don't race Portsmouth.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252657
09/24/12 02:57 PM
09/24/12 02:57 PM
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Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
If we sail worlds next year, I definitely want to be heavier!


Unfortunately for me, even though I put on eight pounds for the ABYC event, I felt sluggy and slow - fitness was up, but I felt much more agile at a trimmer weight during a season on the H16. I can't get much bigger, and it isn't optimal to have 200+ pounds in the skipper position. I think I need to go back to driving. That's the cushy spot on the boat, anyway. grin


I know the feeling. I tried to bulk up some for ABYC, with limited success. I definitely got stronger, but I think I only added 3 or 4 pounds. Training for the NYC Marathon probably didn't help either....


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252659
09/24/12 04:52 PM
09/24/12 04:52 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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We race an NF18 Infusion with all the bells and whistles, long boards, new sails, blah, blah, blah. As a team we've gotten better, but as competitive persons in other aspects of life, we simply are not at all competitive on this boat... (and we're kind of getting tired of trying to get there)


Nacra F18 #856
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: John Williams] #252667
09/24/12 07:47 PM
09/24/12 07:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
How so, Bob?


If your team is under 150 kg you're already going to be punished for it. Making these guys add corrector weights is just adding insult to injury.

I'm thinking 160 kg is probably the best all around weight.

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: rexdenton] #252668
09/24/12 08:07 PM
09/24/12 08:07 PM
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Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
..at a combined weight of 400+ lbs


Welcome to the 5th standard deviation smile

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: rhodysail] #252690
09/25/12 08:17 AM
09/25/12 08:17 AM
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mini Offline
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mini  Offline
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If you are just looking for an excuse to get out then just do it. Waaaaaaa

Sailing in light air requires a lot of technique to keep your boat moving and reading the course lanes etc. Yes at +400 you likely have a little more work, but anyone can make their boat go in 12 and in the big stuff you have an advantage way above your skill level.
Good finishes when it blows like stink does not mean you area good sailor, just heavy. If you are going to use weight as an excuse, it swings both ways, use it properly

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: mini] #252695
09/25/12 09:22 AM
09/25/12 09:22 AM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by mini
If you are just looking for an excuse to get out then just do it. Waaaaaaa

Sailing in light air requires a lot of technique to keep your boat moving and reading the course lanes etc. Yes at +400 you likely have a little more work, but anyone can make their boat go in 12 and in the big stuff you have an advantage way above your skill level.
Good finishes when it blows like stink does not mean you area good sailor, just heavy. If you are going to use weight as an excuse, it swings both ways, use it properly


You aren't seriously trying to tell us light air requires more skill than the breeze, are you? Light air sailing aint rocket science and let's be honest when it's patchy it provides a lot more oportunties to get lucky. If you think going downhill heavy in a breeze is easy or doesn't take skill you clearly haven't done it enough. How many people end up on their side in 5 knots? How many people hit the beach because they are out of their element in the light?

Really, a bit more work at 400+? Do you sail at 400+? You have no clue what you're dealing with when you run at 400+ downhill in the breeze and waves. I've sailed heavy and I've sailed light, at the end of the day light is better!

Light air saling is for old men and little girls and it's just something we do to pass the time until the breeze fills in. What self respecting F18 sailor wants to sail in the light? It takes breeze to make our heavy boats go. Let the A-cat sailors sail in the light, F18's want breeze!



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: David Ingram] #252724
09/26/12 07:22 AM
09/26/12 07:22 AM
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mini Offline
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mini  Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
You aren't seriously trying to tell us light air requires more skill than the breeze, are you? Light air sailing aint rocket science and let's be honest when it's patchy it provides a lot more oportunties to get lucky. If you think going downhill heavy in a breeze is easy or doesn't take skill you clearly haven't done it enough. How many people end up on their side in 5 knots? How many people hit the beach because they are out of their element in the light?



Not more skill but skill all the same. Light stuff and heavy stuff both separate out the fleet. (and the top guys still win in both - go figure)
A lot of people in 5 or less hit the beach becuse they are "out of their element"
I know light teams who suck in light air becuse they do not have the skill or patience to do well. They have to admit it. The fat guys hide their poor sailing skills behind the weight excuse. - Just say'in

No doubt sailing light is going to be better, as long as it is not way light which has its own issues. The issue though should be tied in with politics and religion as logic seldom plays in the discussion.

Re: New weight categories, effective now. [Re: mini] #252732
09/26/12 08:47 AM
09/26/12 08:47 AM
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by mini
Originally Posted by David Ingram
You aren't seriously trying to tell us light air requires more skill than the breeze, are you? Light air sailing aint rocket science and let's be honest when it's patchy it provides a lot more oportunties to get lucky. If you think going downhill heavy in a breeze is easy or doesn't take skill you clearly haven't done it enough. How many people end up on their side in 5 knots? How many people hit the beach because they are out of their element in the light?



Not more skill but skill all the same. Light stuff and heavy stuff both separate out the fleet. (and the top guys still win in both - go figure)
A lot of people in 5 or less hit the beach becuse they are "out of their element"
I know light teams who suck in light air becuse they do not have the skill or patience to do well. They have to admit it. The fat guys hide their poor sailing skills behind the weight excuse. - Just say'in

No doubt sailing light is going to be better, as long as it is not way light which has its own issues. The issue though should be tied in with politics and religion as logic seldom plays in the discussion.


Fat guy! Ding! He called us fat!! An anonymous girly man called us fat!!

Junior, to re-direct your immature, ADD-challenged mind to some facts, few top teams weigh in at 400lbs+. I know of one other, completely dedicated team who are struggling at this weight, and three others who are about in my same boat, who I am always finishing with in competitions. The original question is whether or not *an athletic 400lb team* of combined weight (team that weight-lifts and runs triathlons, bikes, BTW) can be competitive as middling-skilled sailors, or if the platform works against that weight in lighter conditions.

Got it yet?

Last edited by rexdenton; 09/26/12 08:55 AM.

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