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NACRA 500 Spi Halyard Fouls on Jib Furler
by '81 Hobie 16 Lac Leman. 11/11/22 12:11 PM
Spinnaker on Nacra 5.2; halyard fouls when (un)furling jib
by '81 Hobie 16 Lac Leman. 11/11/22 11:50 AM
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252738
09/26/12 09:47 AM
09/26/12 09:47 AM
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pgp Offline
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There aren't enough uni sailors to change class rules or to go off on any tangents.

Those of us interested in uni sailing should just offer practical tips to each other to make it easier and more enjoyable.

I'm curious to hear if anyone has tried cleating the spin while racing. I suspect most of us are too "busy" sheeting too much, hunting the wind too much. The last time I raced I happened to be along side Matt McDonald, downwind, (for a VERY short time) and he was sheeting and steering far less than the rest of us.


Last edited by pgp; 09/26/12 09:49 AM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252743
09/26/12 09:56 AM
09/26/12 09:56 AM
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Hi Pete,

I dont disagree with you. But is the uni participation growning or declining? If it is declining and competitiveness is the most visible answer to why I think it makes sense to discuss this and see what options we have?

Again not a really strong fact in a discussion like this but still something to ponder: At the latest europeans in Gravedonia there were 42 boats. 2 of them were sailing uni. Might be many reasons for this, but I do think I see a trend here.

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Kw56d4C-Jkc/UCpVnajYdhI/AAAAAAAAA0k/jwRE1YvNbLQ/s640/a+aaa.bmp[/img]

Ref: http://assoff16.blogspot.fr/p/actualites.html




I would cleat the spi and rather have the mainsheet in hand when going downwind. Sub-optimal and if you collapse the spi or owerpower you really have lost a lot.. But one of the main issues here is manouvers and righting moment vs power ratios.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252744
09/26/12 10:11 AM
09/26/12 10:11 AM
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pgp Offline
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I'd say it's declining, mostly because it's a lot of work.

I'm reasonably happy with my downwind. I just want to smooth things out: improve my jibes, work on steering less.

Upwind is my problem and I'm so frustrated I'm not even willing to discuss it.


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: pgp] #252746
09/26/12 10:14 AM
09/26/12 10:14 AM
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Really not sure you should be considering cleating the spinny as its the one sail that will damage both the sail and boat when things go wrong if the sail is cleated. I would suspect you will be swimming far more than you are now.

The main really is the one that should be cleated as it is has far less influence when sailing downwind than the spinny. I have found that keeping a moderate amount of sheet load on to set the main and support the mast, together with releasing the downhaul, outhaul and mast rotation ( yes you have to do all of these before putting up the spinny but they become routine eventually ) and then using the travellor to " calm " the boat down if you feel you are being over powered.

Its interesting that as part of the expermintation with Bitsa that I fitted a much smaller spinny from a Mustoo Skiff, only 14sqm but much more skiff like with a very easy to fly shape rather than the more flat spinnys we are using. Half the time to get it up and flying and so much easier to control to the point that the whole package was not much slower in mid strength winds. The boat was much easier to sail as well.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252747
09/26/12 10:15 AM
09/26/12 10:15 AM
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Toronto, Ontario
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I think that definitely the uni vs 2 up is not equal.. The rules should never have been written that way. The rating for the uni should be modified and if that was done I think the class would have a lot of converts from other classes.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252748
09/26/12 10:19 AM
09/26/12 10:19 AM
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West coast of Norway
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I actually disagree with you there Wayne. Going downwind two-up as the helm I often trimmed the main to keep heel under control instead of using the rudders. But one-up.. I have absolutely no experience and dont like damage!


Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252750
09/26/12 10:21 AM
09/26/12 10:21 AM
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pgp Offline
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I don't think you'll find any support for rules changes.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: pgp] #252751
09/26/12 10:23 AM
09/26/12 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pgp
I don't think you'll find any support for rules changes.


I am not looking for support. I am looking for opinions and options smile

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252752
09/26/12 10:26 AM
09/26/12 10:26 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Originally Posted by pgp
I don't think you'll find any support for rules changes.


I am not looking for support. I am looking for opinions and options smile


I was responding to another post.


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252753
09/26/12 10:30 AM
09/26/12 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
I actually disagree with you there Wayne. Going downwind two-up as the helm I often trimmed the main to keep heel under control instead of using the rudders. But one-up.. I have absolutely no experience and dont like damage!


Yup one handed you have to steer the boat and keep the spinny flying with the other, I use the travellor to roughly control the heel and steering input to control the gusts.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: waynemarlow] #252754
09/26/12 10:45 AM
09/26/12 10:45 AM
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The class is going to have to either accept that the Unis are going to wither away until Uni sailing is just for recreational sailing or accept that there will be a sub division of slower boats with all the inherent problems at competitions.

That slower boat thingee is so against the original design brief of allowing all, either dual or solo to compete equally, that perhaps it maybe time to tweak the rules a bit to see where things go.

The F16 future itself, looks bright and is growing fast within Europe and America as far as a dual handed boat goes.

As far as a uni boat goes, until we can run a jib, then its always going to compete with the A's and the Shadows which have strong fleets. If we run a jib ( I guess a 2.5 metre blade jib ) then we will be different and more like the dual handed boats with all the benefits of getting the RM lower in the boat. My thoughts are we are going to end up with a 13.5 m main, 2.5 blade jib and 15m spinny, almost the exact sail sizes of the original Stealth back in 2001. When I first started sailing at Datchet all the single handers had these boats and they all loved them to bits.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252755
09/26/12 10:49 AM
09/26/12 10:49 AM
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Wayne,

could you do a comparison between handling the Musto Skiff (which is single handed with main and spi) and the F 16 Uni?

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252757
09/26/12 10:58 AM
09/26/12 10:58 AM
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Northfield Mn
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How many uni sailors bitch about things being unfair? I guess I really haven't paid much attention, but I don't think its much.


I'm boatless.
Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252758
09/26/12 11:01 AM
09/26/12 11:01 AM
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pgp Offline
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Few if any, it is what it is. Timbo led a minor insurrection a couple of years back but it was settled...something to do with rum.


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252759
09/26/12 11:09 AM
09/26/12 11:09 AM
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Yes we race against them all the time, they are very very difficult to race well but when the skill of the sailor becomes good enough to control the razor edge they sail on, they are incrediably fast. Upwind in up to 12 knots they really are on even territory, downwind they also have a sweet spot where they are very very difficult to pass in true racing style. Enough that at my club where we regularly race against 5 - 6 boats, if you are not ahead at the start you will be almost certainly be still there at the finish, the skill and tactics playing a much bigger part than actual boat performance. Very very impressive skiff and some of the best sailors out there.

Their sailing skill is so much better than mine that its hard to compare like for like, they practice and practice and I think we have a number of top ten sailors in the world at our club, so they are very very good.

Their setup is pretty similar to ours without a rotating mast, 13.5m main, 14 m spinny which they seem to be able to get their spinnys up in a quarter of the time it takes me and they are more manouverable at 75kgs all up, for me they are just a big problem with a capital P if we all start on the same start.

On PY handicap they are 860 approx, I'm on 680 so a no brainer who is going to win on handicap and that is one of the big debates about Uni catamarans.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252760
09/26/12 11:16 AM
09/26/12 11:16 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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I don't know about the Uni racers on your side of the pond Wayne, but here in the States, I've never heard a single Uni sailor complain about it, or think it's 'unfair' or such.

We know we have to work harder than the two up crews, but we also like to race side by side with them, and when we beat them (and we do, once in a while) it's not because we were "light".

There is -no- advantage to racing Uni, even in light air, the jib on the sloop helps much more than the extra crew weight hurts, unless your crew is a 200lb. dude, in which case you should both be on an Inter 20.

We started this class to be able to race two up vs. uni, as equals. I don't hear any Uni guys (over here) crying for a change. What we did at our Nationals a few years ago was, we Uni guys pitched in for a bottle of Rum, for the top placing Uni. Fair enough for us.

Now, that said, I also wouldn't mind seeing a "Uni Only" regatta or training camp, if we could get enough boats to show up (10 or so) to make it worth while, for no other reason than to discus techniques and see what works best when racing Uni.

Do you think we have enough interest to split the fleets at a major regatta, like Nationals or Euro's? You said you had 42 boats at the Euro's, That's a great turnout. But if it had been advertised as a two fleet regatta, ie. Sloops get one start, Uni's another, with separate trophys, etc. would there have been more people inclined to race Uni?

What I think is, the Uni guys know they are at a disadvantage, so for a major regatta, they are going to find good, light crew and race two up.

BUT...if they had the option of racing in a separate Uni fleet, more guys might be inclined to race Uni, as it would be more 'fair' for them to compete equally.


Blade F16
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252761
09/26/12 11:19 AM
09/26/12 11:19 AM
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Knokke-Heist - Belgium
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I would love to see Chris Field on an AquaRaptor some time to show what he can do. Ofcourse with some days of practice on before hand.
Still think apwind a good uni sailor (familiar with A cat) will be faster than 2 up sailors in a lot of conditions as they are just better upwind sailors. Question is, is it enough for the extra time need to hoist.

Gill


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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Timbo] #252762
09/26/12 11:23 AM
09/26/12 11:23 AM
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We don't tend to bitch about whether we deem it unfair or not, I race for the fun more than the competitiveness, what I think we are getting at is that in the first F16 comp I went to there were more unis than sloop. Now it is rare to even see a uni at a comp. Would I go along to a comp knowing I was the only solo, probably not.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252770
09/26/12 01:26 PM
09/26/12 01:26 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Yeah, I hear you, I'll still go Uni if it's local, but I won't drive hundreds of miles and spend $1,000 to get my butt kicked by 20 sloops because it started blowing 20 and I couldn't keep up.

That's why I said maybe we are reacing the point where at BIG regattas, with BIG turnouts, we could discus ahead of time, having two fleets, see how much interest there is.

If there are enough people intereseted in racing Uni, knowing there will be a separate class for them, they might leave their crew at home and have a go, Mano a Mano, so to speak.


Blade F16
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Timbo] #252779
09/27/12 02:50 AM
09/27/12 02:50 AM
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There are a number of problems with trying to compete as equals within our class rules and as far as they stand at the moment, then there is probably no chance of returning to equal status of Uni and Dual, despite the best efforts of the guys who originally set the rules up ( which they did as best as they knew at the time ).

Do we simply admit defeat and just accept that F16 comps in the future are going to be dual only crews ? The downside to that is not everyone can get crews, all of the time. You eliminate a proportion of prospective class owners straight off. The upside is that class rules can be harmonised with the likes of the F18's and simply be considered as a youth, ladies and light weights feeder to Olympic F17 and F18 classes.

Is it time the Uni's set up a proper spinny boat class in their own right, a semi development A Class perhaps? It would be a shame as we have gone so far in such a short time but it maybe the only way to deal with the problems within our own rules and the present handicap issues being raised of the lighter weight Uni boats.

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