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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253835
10/23/12 08:08 PM
10/23/12 08:08 PM
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My mistake by the way I should have up held a protest on shore considering there is no way we overlapped considering it's from the end of the stern. Specially since catamarans don't go strait downwind. Check this website out it show's exactly how they have no room mark room

Last edited by FDUB flyers; 10/23/12 08:09 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253836
10/23/12 08:08 PM
10/23/12 08:08 PM
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The hardest part of holding a protest hearing is determing what actually happened ("finding the facts"). It's common for the parties and witnesses to give very different and often contradictory accounts of what occured. That's ok. Honest people can see the same incident differently and honestly tell different stories.

There have been several different accounts given here -- too many for me to give an opinion. One thing I can recommend though, is for people to review the definition of "overlap". The rules do not define overlap directly. Instead, they define "clear ahead" and "clear astern". If the positions of two boats are such that neither is clear ahead or clear astern, then they are overlapped.

Boats that sail very hot angles downwind, such as catamarans, can easily be overlapped on opposite tacks a long ways before reaching the zone.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253837
10/23/12 08:17 PM
10/23/12 08:17 PM
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I'm just wondering if you click on that link above in my other comment, tell me what you guys think, I honestly am wondering if I was suppose to give room or not. Read it let me know, because I don't want this to happen at an actual big race!

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253838
10/23/12 08:23 PM
10/23/12 08:23 PM
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Overlap has no bearing in this discussion. Whoever is closest to the mark within the 3 lengths of their boat rule with any part of their boat has the rights if I get 57ft from the mark and any part of your 16ft boat is further than 48ft from the mark, I'm inside and you tried to round me up with no mark room you will pay for any damage to my boat. FDUB you are a danger on the course you nead to know the new rules not dinghy match racing pay attention to what I have said go and read the rules before you hurt someone or get yourself hurt.


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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: FDUB flyers] #253839
10/23/12 08:23 PM
10/23/12 08:23 PM
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You know your rules, huh? Your own testimony: "I just wasn't sure on who to protest" and "his bow hit mine after giving him tons of time to maneuver" argue against that assertion. Here is some advice: Always start with the boat that hit you. Not taking a penalty OR protesting in that situation also argues against your assertion and is unacceptable. You violated your FAIR SAILING (rule 2, page 3) agreement (as did at least one of your competitors).

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: JeffS] #253840
10/23/12 08:28 PM
10/23/12 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffS
...As soon as you enter the 3 boat length it is closest to the mark has the rights so if the AC 72 gets within 216ft of the mark first it is entitled to rights and all other boats have the same rights in that 216ft circle, in order of entering it even if the rest of the fleet are moths. If the moth got there 1st the 3 boat length rule would mean the AC72 would only have a 36ft circle to work with. Therefore if they all got to that mark in the order shown the circle is 54ft, in the photos the outside boat is very late and has absolutely no rights. Port starboard has no meaning in this zone, should not even be thought about and I would be very wary of the skipper on the boat yelling it

Be careful about paraphrasing the rules. When trying to simplify them, it's easy to get it wrong. In a mixed fleet, the size of the zone may vary when considering the relationships of different pairs of boats. It's incorrect to say that port and starboard have no meaning in the zone.

Sincerely,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: FDUB flyers] #253842
10/23/12 08:50 PM
10/23/12 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
Also can I protest all three boats or who would it be?

A boat may protest any boat she believes has broken a rule. If that rule is in part 2 (When Boats Meet), the protesting boat must have been involved in or have seen the incident. See rule 60.1.

Rules apply between pairs of boats. For example, if 4 boats are overlapped on the same tack, (1 being windward and 4 being leeward) and 3 does not keep clear of 4, then 3 breaks rule 11. If 2 did not keep clear of 3, she may have compelled 3 to foul 4. Likewise, 2 may have been fouled by 1. Ultimately, exoneration and penalty may pass all the way to the windward boat.

In theory, 4 could protest 3, 3 could protest 2, and 2 could protest 1. Because all protests concerned the same incident, protest committee should hear them all together. Circumstances are rarely ideal though. 4 could protest just 3, just 1, or 1, 2, and 3. If 4 protests 3, and no other protests are filed, then protest committee may (and probably should) protest 1 and 2. That way all the boats involved are parties, have the right to be present, and may be penalized.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: JeffS] #253843
10/23/12 08:52 PM
10/23/12 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffS
Overlap has no bearing in this discussion. Whoever is closest to the mark within the 3 lengths of their boat rule with any part of their boat has the rights if I get 57ft from the mark and any part of your 16ft boat is further than 48ft from the mark, I'm inside and you tried to round me up with no mark room you will pay for any damage to my boat. FDUB you are a danger on the course you nead to know the new rules not dinghy match racing pay attention to what I have said go and read the rules before you hurt someone or get yourself hurt.


Jeff,

What new rules are you referring to? Overlap certainly is important in this situation. If an overlap existed at the zone, then the inside boats were entitled to room at the mark. If FDUB was clear ahead at the zone, then the boats inside at the mark were not entitled to room.



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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Mike Fahle] #253844
10/23/12 08:58 PM
10/23/12 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
You violated your FAIR SAILING (rule 2, page 3) agreement (as did at least one of your competitors).

No rule requires a boat to protest. A boat does not break rule 2 simply by neither protesting nor taking a penalty. A breach of a rule requires special circumstances to elevate it to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253846
10/23/12 09:10 PM
10/23/12 09:10 PM
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To further explain, if boats are coming from two different directions to the same mark there is no visible overlap but one boat will be in the 3 boat length zone first, that boat then has all the rights and sets the length of the 3 boat zone. It is a very good rule change it allows different size boats the safety needed on the course. If a 8ft BIC open with a small kid comes to the mark from an odd direction against a whole fleet of F18's but is rounding the mark the correct way. The mark rights circle will be 24ft and everyone must give that boat rights. But if the F18 gets to 54ft before the BIC gets to 24ft then the F18 has the rights. I'm obviously quoting an improbable race scenario here so don't jump on me I'm just trying to get the new rule accross


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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: FDUB flyers] #253848
10/23/12 09:12 PM
10/23/12 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FDUB flyers
I'm just wondering if you click on that link above in my other comment, tell me what you guys think, I honestly am wondering if I was suppose to give room or not. Read it let me know, because I don't want this to happen at an actual big race!


FDUB, it's hard to say without knowing exactly how the situation developed.

What I believe happened, is a situation very similar to the first picture in your link, except with the three boat on port and you on starboard with a starboard rounding. With the angles spinnaker cats sail on downwind legs, there is a good chance that the line drawn abeam of the aftermost point of your hull would include the pack of three boats when you reached the zone, just as in the picture. If that was the case, you would owe those boats room.

Again, without seeing the situation it's hard to say, and I'm not trying to accuse anyone, just trying to answer the questions!


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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: JeffS] #253849
10/23/12 09:16 PM
10/23/12 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffS
To further explain, if boats are coming from two different directions to the same mark there is no visible overlap but one boat will be in the 3 boat length zone first, that boat then has all the rights and sets the length of the 3 boat zone. It is a very good rule change it allows different size boats the safety needed on the course. If a 8ft BIC open with a small kid comes to the mark from an odd direction against a whole fleet of F18's but is rounding the mark the correct way. The mark rights circle will be 24ft and everyone must give that boat rights. But if the F18 gets to 54ft before the BIC gets to 24ft then the F18 has the rights. I'm obviously quoting an improbable race scenario here so don't jump on me I'm just trying to get the new rule accross


Where is this rule coming from?

Here is the 2013-2016 version of rule 18.2:
18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is
broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped. However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark- room, she is not required to give it.


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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: JeffS] #253852
10/23/12 09:26 PM
10/23/12 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffS
... if boats are coming from two different directions to the same mark there is no visible overlap but one boat will be in the 3 boat length zone first, that boat then has all the rights ...

That is not correct. The scenerio in question has catamarans sailing hot downwind on opposite tacks towards the same mark. If two boats are sailing 30-45 degrees off the true wind on oppposite tacks, then they are most likely overlapped. In that case, when they reach the zone, the outside boat must thereafter give the inside boat "mark-room" under RRS 18.2(b). It is not a matter of "the first boat has all the rights".

Regards,
Eric

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Isotope235] #253854
10/23/12 09:30 PM
10/23/12 09:30 PM
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Kingston SE South Australia
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by JeffS
...As soon as you enter the 3 boat length it is closest to the mark has the rights so if the AC 72 gets within 216ft of the mark first it is entitled to rights and all other boats have the same rights in that 216ft circle, in order of entering it even if the rest of the fleet are moths. If the moth got there 1st the 3 boat length rule would mean the AC72 would only have a 36ft circle to work with. Therefore if they all got to that mark in the order shown the circle is 54ft, in the photos the outside boat is very late and has absolutely no rights. Port starboard has no meaning in this zone, should not even be thought about and I would be very wary of the skipper on the boat yelling it

Be careful about paraphrasing the rules. When trying to simplify them, it's easy to get it wrong. In a mixed fleet, the size of the zone may vary when considering the relationships of different pairs of boats. It's incorrect to say that port and starboard have no meaning in the zone.

Sincerely,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee


G'day Eric I think it is great to have a discussion about something like this where everyone has a firm opinion and only one can come out right as we need to be clear on this. I will state according to the new International Sailing Federation rules once you have established a position within the 3 boat length circle of a mark of the course you have the rights in order of when you came within that circle so if you are 1st it does not matter port or starboard you have the rights and all other boats must give you space to round in a seamanlike manner as long as you don't tack. The more amateur your fleet the more space, for instance at the A Class worlds they would measure in inches at my club level I would give 4 or 5 feet because my seamanship is less than the world class, another example would be if I mucked up a spinnaker takedown because I was excited about coming first, am now under the mark limping up wind while the other spin boats are racing down, once I am in that circle 1st I have the rights no matter what speed is involved
Here is the link I'm working off
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-%5B13376%5D.pdf
If you can give me an example where I am wrong I would not be disappointed I would consider myself better equipped to race

Last edited by JeffS; 10/23/12 09:31 PM.

Jeff Southall
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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253855
10/23/12 09:30 PM
10/23/12 09:30 PM
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Joe, what you have to look at is "what is my fastest course?" Looking at the pics it seems the breeze wasn't really on, and it was shaping up to be crowded on the left gate (always refer to right and left sides of the course as though looking upwind to avoid confusion). Crowded AND the outside of the pinwheel, so lots of extra distance sailed IF you got through clean, which you didn't. Nobody did. Bail right, slow down to make the gybe on the black kite if you have to, give in to win. Odds are, you'd have sailed away from the yelling, slow pinwheel hung up on the other gate.

edit: which i THINK was Tim's original point...


John Williams

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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: JeffS] #253857
10/23/12 09:56 PM
10/23/12 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffS
I will state according to the new International Sailing Federation rules once you have established a position within the 3 boat length circle of a mark of the course you have the rights in order of when you came within that circle so if you are 1st it does not matter port or starboard you have the rights and all other boats must give you space to round in a seamanlike manner as long as you don't tack.

The RRS 2013-2016 have had several changes. That includes rewriting of the definition of mark-room and some tweaking of rule 18. Rule 18.2(b), however, has not changed. In what rule do you find "rights in order"? In the previous rules (2005-2008), if a rule of Section A or Section B conflicted with Section C (e.g. rule 18), then the A/B rule didn't apply. That meant that there were times that rule 10 could switch off. That confused a lot of sailors, so ISAF took that out of the current (2009-2012) rules. Rule 10 applies throughout mark roundings -- the starboard tack boat's actions may, however, be limited by rule 18. A port-tack boat entitled to mark-room may also be exonerated for breaking rule 10 (see RRS 18.5 or RRS 21 in the upcoming rules).

Quote
The more amateur your fleet the more space, for instance at the A Class worlds they would measure in inches at my club level I would give 4 or 5 feet because my seamanship is less than the world class, another example would be if I mucked up a spinnaker takedown because I was excited about coming first, am now under the mark limping up wind while the other spin boats are racing down, once I am in that circle 1st I have the rights no matter what speed is involved

There is not total agreement in the judging community about how much room is enough. While I agree that some consideration should be given to the base skill level of the event, the rules do not excuse poor seamanship at all. If a boat entitled to mark-room takes more room than necessary due to a mishandled spinnaker takedown, then she may break rule 10, 11, or 12 in the process.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: John Williams] #253858
10/23/12 10:05 PM
10/23/12 10:05 PM
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Timbo Offline OP
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Joe, what you have to look at is "what is my fastest course?" Looking at the pics it seems the breeze wasn't really on, and it was shaping up to be crowded on the left gate (always refer to right and left sides of the course as though looking upwind to avoid confusion). Crowded AND the outside of the pinwheel, so lots of extra distance sailed IF you got through clean, which you didn't. Nobody did. Bail right, slow down to make the gybe on the black kite if you have to, give in to win. Odds are, you'd have sailed away from the yelling, slow pinwheel hung up on the other gate.

edit: which i THINK was Tim's original point...


Yes, that was my exact point, thank you very much John. To Joe, do you think I intentionally tapped you, as if I could have not? You gave me no other choice, but if it makes you feel any better, I also had to go up and hit Karl above me, to avoid T-Boning you really hard.

No matter who's on "STARBOARD!!" the more important rule is, don't hit anyone, or cause others to do so. You had plenty of clear water below you and could have given us all room to round. What were you thinking? All 3 of us would just vanish, because you were on Starboard?

But as John stated, the 'faster' way, would have been to round the other gate pin and sail away in clear air, vs. ride the pinwheel around in dirty air, then suffer for the rest of the leg with 2 F16's and an F18 (pink spin) sitting on you. In very light air, clear air is king.


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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Isotope235] #253859
10/23/12 10:31 PM
10/23/12 10:31 PM
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Kingston SE South Australia
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by JeffS
I will state according to the new International Sailing Federation rules once you have established a position within the 3 boat length circle of a mark of the course you have the rights in order of when you came within that circle so if you are 1st it does not matter port or starboard you have the rights and all other boats must give you space to round in a seamanlike manner as long as you don't tack.

The RRS 2013-2016 have had several changes. That includes rewriting of the definition of mark-room and some tweaking of rule 18. Rule 18.2(b), however, has not changed. In what rule do you find "rights in order"? In the previous rules (2005-2008), if a rule of Section A or Section B conflicted with Section C (e.g. rule 18), then the A/B rule didn't apply. That meant that there were times that rule 10 could switch off. That confused a lot of sailors, so ISAF took that out of the current (2009-2012) rules. Rule 10 applies throughout mark roundings -- the starboard tack boat's actions may, however, be limited by rule 18. A port-tack boat entitled to mark-room may also be exonerated for breaking rule 10 (see RRS 18.5 or RRS 21 in the upcoming rules).

Quote
The more amateur your fleet the more space, for instance at the A Class worlds they would measure in inches at my club level I would give 4 or 5 feet because my seamanship is less than the world class, another example would be if I mucked up a spinnaker takedown because I was excited about coming first, am now under the mark limping up wind while the other spin boats are racing down, once I am in that circle 1st I have the rights no matter what speed is involved

There is not total agreement in the judging community about how much room is enough. While I agree that some consideration should be given to the base skill level of the event, the rules do not excuse poor seamanship at all. If a boat entitled to mark-room takes more room than necessary due to a mishandled spinnaker takedown, then she may break rule 10, 11, or 12 in the process.

Regards,
Eric


The rules state that as you enter the three boat length circle around the mark you establish your position as long as you sail in a seaman like manner on a proper course and that would mean rounding the buoy.
Heres another reason FDUB mucked up he didn't come close to allowing enough room for the inside cats to round in a seaman like manner
As far as proper rounding room goes if you or your tiller hits the mark you must do a circle as it's part of your boat, so my interpretation is if I am inside boat against the mark you must allow me to keep my bows on their current course until the rear of my centreboards is past the mark as I cannot roundup sooner without hitting the mark, furthermore you must allow my tiller to be fully extended and me to be on the wire if I need to for proper seamanship, so the inside area I need to round a mark correctly is much bigger than a dinghy sailor would anticipate. In proper wind a correct rounding could see me on the wire at the rounding adding just under 6ft to the width on my cat so you need to allow me 14ft from the mark in width with my head nearly touching the mark and about 11ft of length infront of the mark as I go round.


Jeff Southall
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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253860
10/23/12 11:01 PM
10/23/12 11:01 PM
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Wow, a little too much emotion here guys. It's really hard to follow the story and find facts with everyone screaming and calling one another names.

I have to agree with Eric and Jeff D. that there are conflicting stories and without a protest, it would be difficult to get to the bottom of this.

Having said that, I totally agree with Jeff D. above. Go to the linked website and save that first picture. Open it in Paint (or equivalent) and do a Flip Horizontal. That will give you a rough idea of what it sounds like the boats looked like coming into the left gate (it's basically a mirror image of what is shown in that link of the right gate mark rounding).

The picture of the actual incident in this thread seems to confirm that the boats were probably in roughly that arrangement when the first one got to the zone. If STBD were further behind, that just solidifies the fact that all of the other boats were overlapped inside of her. (Note, even if the port boats were not overlapped with one another, they are all overlapped inside of STBD). If STBD were further ahead when she entered the zone, she would have been gone before the others got there.

JeffS: You have a lot going on in your posts, but just to clarify, this is already in the current book:
Zone (definition) The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

As an aside, I sit on protest committees for all levels of events, kids through adults, cats and monohulls. One common theme is that the higher the event level, the higher the expectation of the sailors abilities to handle their boats correctly (and less room needs to be given for the same situation). The key terms are promptly and seamanlike. If a boat (at any level) waits to respond, she's out; but a new sailor may legitimately need more time to complete a maneuver. The gray area is seamanlike.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253862
10/23/12 11:03 PM
10/23/12 11:03 PM
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Yes, I wrote rule 2 when I meant rule 3 which says in part "each competitor agrees to be governed by the rules" and as I already pointed out the Basic Principle on page 2 of the rule book is that "Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty or retire." We see way too many incidents like this w/o either protests or penalty turns and boats being sailed like bumper boats. This Basic Principle is written on page two of the RRS to emphasize its importance; so while racers may not be breaking a numbered rule by not protesting, it may be even worse... they are breaking the basic principle that we all agree to when we race. I know this is important to you; shouldn't it be important to every racer?

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