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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253863
10/23/12 10:09 PM
10/23/12 10:09 PM
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Rule 61.1 "A boat intending to protest shall always inform the boat other boat at the first reasonable opportunity." That would be on the water right after the foul and include the hail, "protest".

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253864
10/23/12 10:20 PM
10/23/12 10:20 PM
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uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Its odd that a port tacker who is laying the leeward mark always has an overlap on a starboard tacker just breaking the 3 boat-length circle ... EVEN IF HE [the port tacker] IS A MILE AWAY!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253865
10/23/12 10:37 PM
10/23/12 10:37 PM
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Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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I am really trying to understand this, is there any reason that anyone can post where all cats on the same tack at the rounding mark sailing in a seamanlike manner can be pushed up onto each other by the outside boat? except to avoid collision which would make it the outside boats fault


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
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Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: TEAMVMG] #253866
10/23/12 10:53 PM
10/23/12 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Its odd that a port tacker who is laying the leeward mark always has an overlap on a starboard tacker just breaking the 3 boat-length circle ... EVEN IF HE [the port tacker] IS A MILE AWAY!


Well, it's certainly not intuitive, which is why most people get it wrong until they get it drilled into them at a rules seminar (that linked drawing usually does the trick), or deals with it in a protest.

Realistically, a boat a mile away has an inside overlap that doesn't matter, because the STBD boat would be long gone by the time he gets there. It only really matters for the closer boats.

Mike

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: TEAMVMG] #253869
10/24/12 06:12 AM
10/24/12 06:12 AM
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Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Its odd that a port tacker who is laying the leeward mark always has an overlap on a starboard tacker just breaking the 3 boat-length circle ... EVEN IF HE [the port tacker] IS A MILE AWAY!


I fill freely admit I screwed that one up when I first started sailing boats that sail hot angles downwind!


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: JeffS] #253870
10/24/12 07:12 AM
10/24/12 07:12 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Read above. The rules are always a 1 boat vs. 1 boat situation. Effectively the 1st boat inside has room at the mark, the 2nd boat has to let them round in a seamanlike manner, and so on down the line. This means the outside boat can't force a collision, has to let the other boats round quickly-not tactically advantageous, if you look at the photo I don't think anyone was breaking this, no one was trying to go wide and tight at the mark. Still the outside boat broke rule 14. And its also pretty clear that they don't understand the rules fully, nor have a complete understanding of how to handle a spinnaker boat at a mark rounding. You don't play bumper cars with $80K in boats.

Last edited by samc99us; 10/24/12 07:15 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253871
10/24/12 08:05 AM
10/24/12 08:05 AM
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St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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There is no doubt in my mind that Starboard was overlapped with all three port boats. I have no idea on if the port boats would be overlapped with each other. It comes down to if Starboard gave the inside boats room and time to round in a seaman like manner.

I'll go further and say that a single handed boat needs a lot more room to turn a mark in a seaman like manner. All boats are not equal. It's damn hard to jibe, take a chute down and turn the mark at the same time single-handed. What is seaman like at a Club race is not nessessarily seaman like at a Nationals. The playing level changes.


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253873
10/24/12 09:00 AM
10/24/12 09:00 AM
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Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Did the Falcon with the black spin (with the gold/yellow falcon on it) come up hard, cross all the transoms and come away inside. If so, that is what JW means by "give in to win" ....


Tom
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: tshan] #253874
10/24/12 09:22 AM
10/24/12 09:22 AM
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Naples, FL
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I think that the Falcon (Black spin with gold logo) probably just drove around that parking lot of boats...



Jay

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253875
10/24/12 09:38 AM
10/24/12 09:38 AM
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Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Looks like a missed opportunity. Hard to tell by the pictures if they had room to get insde there or not OR if they could get there without killing all their momentum in light air.

How long did it take the pinwheel to circumnavigate that mark? Been there before myself....


Tom
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Mike Hill] #253876
10/24/12 09:48 AM
10/24/12 09:48 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
There is no doubt in my mind that Starboard was overlapped with all three port boats. I have no idea on if the port boats would be overlapped with each other. It comes down to if Starboard gave the inside boats room and time to round in a seaman like manner.


Exactly.... Now Seaman like is the issue. Seaman like is NOT necessarily FAST, NOT TACTICAL (enter wide... come out close) Seaman like IS CONTROLLED.... SEAMAN LIKE IS NOT ARBITRARY!

Quote
I'll go further and say that a single handed boat needs a lot more room to turn a mark in a seaman like manner. All boats are not equal. It's damn hard to jibe, take a chute down and turn the mark at the same time single-handed. What is seaman like at a Club race is not nessessarily seaman like at a Nationals. The playing level changes.


NO... now you are on the slippery slope to NASCAR. You cannot go racing when you are expecting the other boats to make snap judgements on the skill level of the boats on their inside.

The single handed boat... should snuff their chute early....They then can control their boat in a seaman like manner in the rounding. It was their call to push the edge of their skill level. The other boats in the fleet EXPECT the single hander to behave just like any other 16 foot boat in the regatta.

Likewise, in a monohull regatta... if you are sailing shorthanded... and you flub the rounding and don't sail it in a seaman like way... any boats you foul are your fault. It was your call to mix it up. We just made this call a week ago when the skipper made the call to give up the lead and inside position BECAUSE THE CREW WAS GREEN and judged the risk as too high

Room is the next issue.... Assuming the three inside boats were rounding in a seaman like manner... collisions are not room. So... somebody was at fault. If boats one and two on the inside had adequate room to round in the conditions in a seamanlike manner and did not collide.... the question becomes... how much less room did boat three have....

Quote
There is not total agreement in the judging community about how much room is enough. While I agree that some consideration should be given to the base skill level of the event, the rules do not excuse poor seamanship at all. If a boat entitled to mark-room takes more room than necessary due to a mishandled spinnaker takedown, then she may break rule 10, 11, or 12 in the process.

Regards,
Eric


The Base skill level of the fleet was NOT a consideration here... it was a club event.... No expectation that competitors were world class... (I am not even sure that you can make this claim about 1 through 100 at any catamaran world event... but that is another discussion)
The first point is... that Control of your boat is Seamanlike..

The second point is.... Protest Committees are the BEST WAY to sort out the game... The culture that we don't protest generates this kind of crap after the fact.

Quote
There was a small amount of tapping of hulls, side to side, no damage that I could see. At what point should the outside boat stop luffing the inside boats?

After he taps them, or before?


At a PC hearing... you would have had to read the rules before you walked in and made your case that you were denied room..... (hint hint... indicating that boats had to tap to have a protest means that you have no clue about the current rules....) You could be in the right... BUT... choosing to litigate on the forum with the loaded language that you used is just crap!!!





crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253878
10/24/12 12:00 PM
10/24/12 12:00 PM
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Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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"The culture that we don't protest generates this kind of crap after the fact." and "At a PC hearing... you would have had to read the rules before you walked in and made your case that you were denied room..... (hint hint... indicating that boats had to tap to have a protest means that you have no clue about the current rules....) You could be in the right... BUT... choosing to litigate on the forum with the loaded language that you used is just crap!!!

Well put, Mark! There are 4 basic Right of Way (R-O-W) rules, 4 General Limitations rules, 2 rules at Marks and Obstructions, and 3 Other Rules in the R-O-W rules section. How can you not be motivated to learn these few rules before racing when the stakes can be so high? Who wants to risk their property to others so uninformed? It has never been easier (or cheaper) to get excellent rules instruction and learning aids. Why does this culture of rules ignorance persist?

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Mike Fahle] #253880
10/24/12 12:39 PM
10/24/12 12:39 PM
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Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Why does this culture of rules ignorance persist?


Let's not attack the people who are here and wanting to sail and learn ... heck this post has 51 replies in just over 24 hours.

Perhaps this could be used as a "Teaching Moment".

Maybe we need to be proactive and have a weekly rules discussion ... a new topic each week with scenario's for us all to weigh in and debate.

With the speeds that cats approach each other it would be useful to have thought thru various scenarios previously (essentially increasing our experience thru virtual learning)





USA 777
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253881
10/24/12 12:53 PM
10/24/12 12:53 PM
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Is it worth noting one of those involved is still in high school?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253884
10/24/12 01:41 PM
10/24/12 01:41 PM
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Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Do you all read certain poster's posts in a voice all their own? When I read a Mark post, it sounds (in my head) like a teacher looking down on me while wagging his finger at me. I am not judging his content, just commenting on the little voice that goes off in my head as I read one of his posts.

BTW, he and Mark do make some good points about a lack of rules knowledge - which sadly, I may fall into the group that is less knowledgable of the rules as I should be.


Tom
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: samc99us] #253886
10/24/12 01:47 PM
10/24/12 01:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Questions pertaining to the photos:

Still having trouble sorting out who is who:

Blue spin - port tack next to mark - ?
Pink spin - port tack middle - T-back?
Red spin - port tack outside - Timbo?
Orange spin - stb tack outside - ?

when we talk of "room", are we in consensus that regardless of skill, each F16 needed about 1.5 meters on each side of the hull to accommodate the hiking stick, trapeze, etc ("normal equipment")?

If the stb boat hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead) then none of this would have been an issue as it would have sailed on ahead of everyone, or would it have run out of clean air and stalled while the pinwheel overtook them?

If the port boats hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead), then the stb boat was to keep clear from entry to exit?

If the stb boat hit the ring first but overlapped by the port boat(s), who has "rights" then?

If the reverse is true (port boats hit ring first but overlapped by stb boat)?


Jay

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: waterbug_wpb] #253888
10/24/12 02:10 PM
10/24/12 02:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Questions pertaining to the photos:

Still having trouble sorting out who is who:

Blue spin - port tack next to mark - ?
Pink spin - port tack middle – Karl/Beth F18
Red spin - port tack outside - Timbo?
Orange spin - stb tack outside - ?
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb

when we talk of "room", are we in consensus that regardless of skill, each F16 needed about 1.5 meters on each side of the hull to accommodate the hiking stick, trapeze, etc ("normal equipment")?

Quote
If the stb boat hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead) then none of this would have been an issue as it would have sailed on ahead of everyone, or would it have run out of clean air and stalled while the pinwheel overtook them?

I think that is the consensus

Quote

If the port boats hit the 48' ring first (clear ahead), then the stb boat was to keep clear from entry to exit?

Yes … but clear ahead? I think a starboard boat fetching the mark would have had an overlap for some time… and thus your last question is pertinent.

Quote

If the stb boat hit the ring first but overlapped by the port boat(s), who has "rights" then?

Starboard should have clean air all the way as the port boats will need to gybe and round the mark … starboard will have all the momentum to stay clear AND ahead.

Quote

If the reverse is true (port boats hit ring first but overlapped by stb boat)?


Starboard stays clear And give mark room … Note that all the other port boats had overlaps so Mark Room for all


USA 777
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #253889
10/24/12 02:17 PM
10/24/12 02:17 PM
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Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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I do a lot of judging, and would be happy to answer rules questions/put together some scenarios if there is an interest for that. Probably the best way to do it would be to have someone submit a scenario, then discuss the situation. We have had a couple rules talks in our fleet and I believe it has helped.

Remember that the new 2013-2016 rules go into effect on January 1, so if you plan to sail OCR, Tradewinds, etc. you need to look into the changes.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #253890
10/24/12 02:31 PM
10/24/12 02:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
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Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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That's awesome Jeff.

I have one, but I'll submit it over the weekend so we can hash this one out and beat it like a dead horse before we get into another.



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USA 777
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: tback] #253891
10/24/12 02:48 PM
10/24/12 02:48 PM
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Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Why does this culture of rules ignorance persist?

Let's not attack the people who are here and wanting to sail and learn ... heck this post has 51 replies in just over 24 hours.
Perhaps this could be used as a "Teaching Moment".
Maybe we need to be proactive and have a weekly rules discussion ... a new topic each week with scenario's for us all to weigh in and debate.
With the speeds that cats approach each other it would be useful to have thought thru various scenarios previously (essentially increasing our experience thru virtual learning)


This exact scenario was in Rick and Mary's Catamaran Sailor magazine not that long ago, every edition of the magazine has a teaching page and it only costs $20 a year for Americans including postage, I pay more because I'm on the other side of the world, they will post it anywhere and it's a great read.

I think it's been a productive thread where at the start some people said that the inside boats had all infringed and now there seems to be a concensus that the outside boat has infringed, that makes us all safer on the course because we are on the same page.


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
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