I think the only thing that has changed is that the outside guys stopped posting. I didn't see them agree but may have missed that?

Mike

Comments like "Let's not attack the people who are here and wanting to sail and learn" and "Is it worth noting that one of those involved is still in high school?" are example of the culture of tolerance for rules ignorance.

Does anyone on this forum care how old the driver was who wrecked your boat because he lacked rules knowledge? We need to start telling each other that this is unacceptable instead of excusing it - this situation will not change if we keep allowing it and making excuses for it. We need to hold ourselves responsible and each other. Let's start now. No more excuses. It is NOT an attack to call someone out for racing under the influence of ignorance. It is NOT a bad thing to protest - it is our duty to know, follow, and ENFORCE the rules. Does anyone ever see referees on our race courses? That is our responsibility.

This is a particularly good time to start since there is a new four year period of the rules (as mentioned above), between the Summer Olympic games and the changes are relatively minor and already well explained online with free downloads.

I've no tolerance for intolerance or the ignorance that presumes intolerance is tolerable. Good bye.

Mike you post very abrupt statements full of authority but this earlier post of yours in my opinion was totally wrong and showed no knowledge of the new rules have you changed your interpretation of the rules

Well I feel like this situation has went too far. All I was wondering was honestly who had the right, now that I look at it we were overlapped and they did deserve mark room. But the fact was that I still gave room and they took a bit to much. It says seaman like way, not the fastest so that's all I'm saying but anyways sorry if I offended anyone. I just don't like when people post stuff on the internet being completely bias without the other's opinion. So that's my reason for being a little rude earlier.Thanks for the comments and advice everyone.

Goodnight

It happens, we've all been there. Just learn from it an keep up the good work, we all want you guys to succeed!

It hasn't gone too far, it's a great discussion that most people have learnt from except you. You still don't acknowledge that you erred because you didn't know the rules, you made 3 boats collide by yelling starboard in the 3 boat zone and luffing them up. Say sorry you have learnt or you will continue to look silly

I learned that they did have the right for room around the mark which I did give them, but I didn't luff them up. After they continued to take too much I headed them up a bit. Collision only happened because he didn't head up a bit when I called for too much room and i gave him time to react.

When you head some one up you luff them up, you cannot head the boat above you up until he has room to head up or you are creating a collision, I have posted politely and repetatively with examples and facts but you still don't understand. You are either arrogant or a dimwit go and read the rules.

Sorry that was a typo, but wow no need to be mean. I know my rules but exactly what you said unless he has room, which he did at the moment. You were not there so you don't know what happened, just saying.

Personally, I have learned from this discussion and it was worthwhile. I have had a very hard time learning all of the rules, reading them online and memorizing is pretty different than applying them on the race course when things are happening quickly.

It's extremely frustrating when someone walks up to me after racing and tells me I fouled them with no explanation at all. It's an attitude that is luckily not common in the local guys, but is not encouraging at all to newer guys.

Lots of people will scream to read the rules, but putting it all together on the water takes experience. I'm not asking for tolerance or ignorance, but take every opportunity to teach and help others learn.

Joe, the other lesson that was hard for me to accept; you can be 100% in the right, go to the room, and lose. Once you're in the room, you've surrendered control. That was what led me to be so proactive about avoiding a situation like the one you describe. As you can see in this thread, recollection is fallible, stories can be difficult to sort out, and perspective changes everything. Know your rules, sure, and like Mike says, be prepared to obey and enforce them. But also listen to the little voice in your head that says, "don't go in there, Skipper."

Joe, I did go up, but only a foot, because that's all the room there was, until I was brushing up against the boat above me, who was right up against the boat above him, who was right up against the mark.

You needed to give all 3 inside boats room to round the mark, without hitting the mark, and some room between each of us (more than 12" would be nice) so we can all turn without rubbing each other.

We're nearly there FDUB I was trying to post a short response which was why it came out mean, here is your problem you say he had room so you hit him as you luffed him. You have now broken the main rule of seamanship you collided when you could have avoided, the sailor clearly had no space or would not have hit the boat inside him while you were hitting him this proves the no space rule. You should have given room, flew your red flag and demanded redress in the room after the race, you would then call your witnesses that would defend your protest, the other skippers would have called their witnesses, regardless of how this case came out there would have been a safe race with no damage to boats. I would be very surprised if your protest was upheld as I can't see the new catamaran sailor who yelled starboard when last in the 3 boat circle would be well equipped to work out how much space is enough as opposed to the 3 experienced sailors he forced to collide. I think it's wonderful that you are enthusiastic about cat sailing and would encourage you to consider sailing aggressively but courteously within the rules so that you are welcomed and encouraged on the beach instead of the alternative. Just acknowlege you were wrong by forcing a collision without making any excuses and you go back to rockstar

Thanks for the advice John, I understand what you're saying. Been there, done that! lol Trust me I would have gone behind the inside boat, but to make the mark I was going strait downwind so we went from being far ahead to being right in the middle with all them and I didn't want to loose more ground with the position I had at the moment. Things happen ya learn. I'm tired of arguing though, because no matter what I or anyone says in this conversation they will think they are right, so see ya later!

FDUB

What you should ALSO learn is what kind of evidence would you need to take into the protest room to make your case...

You assert that you gave all of the inside boats sufficient room to make a sea manlike rounding... you assert that in the conditions... that Jeff S's interpretation is not correct... You may be right.... So... Now what... Each post you make reveals more FACTS about your actions... and the inside boats actions.

So... your goal is to turn your assertions of what happened... into FACTS FOUND.... so you have to generate testimony that support your assertion and that turns them into facts...

OK... What questions are you going to ask each boat in the pin wheel.

What FACTS do you want the protest committee to agree to.

What witness's are you going to call to support those FACTS .... What do you expect them to testify to and What questions will you ask to get to FACTS.

What questions do you expect to answer about the FACTS...
What is your explanation for heading up... Luffing or sailing your proper course around the mark... (get a rule book here)

This PROCESS WILL BE CRITICAL once you are part and parcel to a collision with damages. Your insurance will ask for the PC report. So... getting Facts Found on site by third party sailors is really important in the future. It will cost you your deductible if you don't pay attention now and learn how to manage the situation.

If I were you.... I would ASK THE JUDGES on this thread....What questions they would be asking.... What FACTS they will be looking for...

THEN... you can worry about the rules and how they apply in this situation. THEN you can decide what further actions you could or should take.

So... don't stop now.... learn all you can from this incident... it's a very cheap education.

(PS.... Lots of people will benefit from your courage in pressing onwards)

Will you quit trying to argue? How can you say all 3 are experienced if you don't even know all the boats involved? Just because we made a mistake doesn't mean we don't know our rules.

Regards.

Mark has some good advice, which may help with the situation JDub describes above (being 100% right, or at least believing you are, and still losing in the room). This happens even with highly experienced PCs, because it all comes down to what (and how) information is presented in the protest hearing.

Here's another clue: You were not as far ahead as you think if you would up like that picture shows. Stop telling yourself that, because it's clouding your mind. And, even a boatlength or more lead isn't truly a lead if the positions work against you, especially at marks, and this is true on any type of boat.

Mike

Ok we now know that the outside boat should have given room, well I think we have. I had an almost exact same scenario recently with a Mustoo skiff at a mark, we both arrived in the zone almost simultaneously and yes as he was the slower boat ( just ) I gave him room to round the mark.

But these skiffies are incrediably competative and he carried on straight ahead to ensure he slowed me down over the water enough to win on handicap ( yes these top class sailors do think of these things ). My question is at what stage can I just luff him up because he's being a prat or can he, as he did, just carry on straight ahead ( which incidentally let 3 other boats through behind.

Tack away - if he's looking back at you and holding a line to keep you pinned, it is time to go. Every second counts, especially on the boats catching you from behind - they still have kites up and are making up more than a second for every second that passes for you. As my pilots friends say, "ejectejecteject!"