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Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254616
11/12/12 12:29 PM
11/12/12 12:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 15
Massachusetts
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tzilinski Offline
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tzilinski  Offline
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Posts: 15
Massachusetts
Just curious where the all the boats come in on the weight spectrum. Looking over older posts, it looks like the weights for 2-up are approximately:
Viper: 130
Falcon: 112
Blade: 107
Taipan: 107
Nacra: ?
Raptor:107 (per website)
Bimare:122 (per website)
Cirrus: ?

Last edited by tzilinski; 11/12/12 01:01 PM.
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Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254617
11/12/12 12:48 PM
11/12/12 12:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline OP
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I don't remember and I tossed all my notes some time ago.

We weighed Blades and Taipans about two years ago. Only the Taipan came close to min. at about 2 lbs. over.


Last edited by pgp; 11/12/12 12:51 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254619
11/12/12 01:18 PM
11/12/12 01:18 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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West coast of Norway
Fragmentation of the class in open events due to different weights we can live with. If the hotshots race as F16 this issue goes away and additional classes offers additional honors to those who choose to race as one design or under a rating system. No need to worry.

Tampering with class rules to make a lot of boats obsolete and "dumbing down" the class is the real issue.
The intention was to have a high tech class and increasing min weight certainly is not following the founders targets. Increasing min weight is only a move to increase profits. All kind of good intentions can be argued like "making the class accessible to more sailors", "evening out the playing field" etc. Take this argument to the extreme and we soon can argue about sailing bathtubs with bedsheets for sails becouse it is so even and fair.

In the end the class about sailors, the sailing experience and social interaction, not profits. I definately dont want the targets of the class to change just to increase profits of one or several manufacturers. I would rather keep the experience as it is and support those manufacturers stepping up to the challenge of building to min weight at a reasonable price.




Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254622
11/12/12 01:40 PM
11/12/12 01:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
I would never agree to raising minimum weight. Eventually the latest greatest cloth or resin will come out making carbon, or epoxy obsolete.

Next year Pete, I'm all uni. Including nationals.


I'm boatless.
Re: Increased weight [Re: Karl_Brogger] #254626
11/12/12 02:00 PM
11/12/12 02:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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pgp  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I would never agree to raising minimum weight. Eventually the latest greatest cloth or resin will come out making carbon, or epoxy obsolete.

Next year Pete, I'm all uni. Including nationals.


Then you'd better step up to the Presidency!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254627
11/12/12 02:20 PM
11/12/12 02:20 PM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Sadly market forces will dictate in the end, the major manufacturers have become the majority and in any democracy the majority should rule.

Whether we disagree that raising the weight simply because it suits the major players in making their boats easier to build and they are able to use components from other ranges to cut the costs down, is beside the point, a majority of F16 boats are now in the 120 - 130kgs bracket and suited to dual crews.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254628
11/12/12 02:30 PM
11/12/12 02:30 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Market forces are all under regulations. That is where a class structure and ideology comes into the picture.

The manufacturers are not an majority. Those who bought their products might be a majority. That will be confirmed or not as part of a potential vote if speculation becomes reality.

Re: Increased weight [Re: waynemarlow] #254636
11/12/12 03:21 PM
11/12/12 03:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
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Netherlands
I do see a lot of comments and some are done logical wise but not completely valid. Weight is one thing but the reason for the increasing is something different. It is very strange if i would open the **** box here but the reason of my step down is quite logic if you know the details.
Yes i am maybe not the perfect manager but more a technical guy but i do know which step needs to be done before the next step to make a system work. I can tell you all that i have been fighting the last 2 years to keep the class as much as possible in the way as it has been set up by the founders but this struggle was consuming more time which better should have been used in set up of the organization and this was simply not possible.
I build a strong and stiff Raptor in glass/epoxy at this moment below 107kg and the reason why i did try to achieve this is because as a sailor i would always ask a builder for a product to the class rules. I have found out that in the F16 class the majority of sailors are not really asking this from the builders, this is odd in my opinion, and a key element what causes the problem for the F16 class.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254638
11/12/12 03:26 PM
11/12/12 03:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
Originally Posted by pgp
I said over a year ago the F16 class will disappear inside private clubs, at least in the U.S. That seems to be happening because they are the only people who care about the class. It will change as they see fit.


Please don't repeat this and give the "Fad" folks more ammo...


Jay

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254640
11/12/12 03:27 PM
11/12/12 03:27 PM
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Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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You're interpreting this the wrong way. It insures the class will flourish.

Beach catting in the U.S. is dead. Those classes who are adopted into formal settings will continue to grow for a long time. Those that don't are done. A class being the possible exception.

Last edited by pgp; 11/12/12 03:28 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254641
11/12/12 03:28 PM
11/12/12 03:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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that makes me feel a little better... thanks for the clarification


Jay

Re: Increased weight [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254648
11/12/12 03:55 PM
11/12/12 03:55 PM
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Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

The manufacturers are not an majority. Those who bought their products might be a majority.

If all the manufacturers make boats at 120kgs then only boats can be purchased at 120kgs and therefore the manufacturers control the vote.

AHPC set out and marketed their boats well, they had top class sailors win events, they discounted and made sure their boats were seen at events. They gave good backup and had a good design, albeit probably 20 kgs over weight. They had good manufacturing processes in a cheap labour environment, they took the marketing of there boats seriously and because of that they are now the dominating manufacturer.

I say well done, you deserve to be top dog and now you can dictate to what should be a long running class. Every other manufacturer out there dithered about or didn't have the budget to really push their products and thus lost the marketing campaign.

Remember history is littered with great design being over whelmed by inferior design simply by marketing nous and expertise, the best doesn't always succeed.

If the class was to vote I would actually vote to increase the weight further to about 130kgs, its at this point the F16's suddenly start to become competitive in SCHRS and Texel handicap systems. At this weight the performance is not lost on handicap and it gives good margins on build durability.

The ironic thing is that if the weight is increased to 125kgs, it will have the opposite effect to what the manufacturers hope, that of sealing off the market to just 1 or 2 suppliers. At 125 kgs the likes of Hobie and others will all have boats on the water within 12 months, afterall all they have to build is hulls and use components from within their own range for ancillaries such as boards and masts. Cheap cheap development and a no brainer to at least be part of a probably the biggest growing market in small cat sailing.

Re: Increased weight [Re: Karl_Brogger] #254649
11/12/12 03:55 PM
11/12/12 03:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

Next year Pete, I'm all uni. Including nationals.

awesome. I hope more people move this direction... at least up here

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254650
11/12/12 04:19 PM
11/12/12 04:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
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Nick F16 Offline
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I think raising the minimum weight will end up in breaking up the F16 class, especially if Nacra will be able to provide enough of their Olympic 17s
Almost same price and not too much difference in weight then...
I chose the F16 besides I wanted to enter a challenging class that, although I´m a light Helm (68kg), I ´m able to right my F16 solo, so even whem my Helm doesn´t got time, I don´t have to stay on shore. IMHO I wouldn´t be able to right a 125kg boat without aids.

Re: Increased weight [Re: Nick F16] #254652
11/12/12 04:33 PM
11/12/12 04:33 PM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Righting is not an issue whether its 107 or 120kgs, its the mast weight and sail weight that does most of the damage.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254653
11/12/12 04:51 PM
11/12/12 04:51 PM
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Posts: 4
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Nick F16 Offline
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will a 120-130kg F16 still have a carbon-mast? I dont think so an alloy mast is cheaper - especially if a manufacturer uses a shortend F18 mast...

Re: Increased weight [Re: Nick F16] #254654
11/12/12 05:07 PM
11/12/12 05:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
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Bob_Curry Offline
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Bob_Curry  Offline
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Raising weight? There goes all the uni wannabees. Ya know, as we age, there is a need for a good lightweight uni/sloop-spin boat. But there is already a ready-to-go heavy sloop class out there--- F18.

Have fun.
BC wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Increased weight [Re: Nick F16] #254656
11/12/12 05:53 PM
11/12/12 05:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by Nick F16
will a 120-130kg F16 still have a carbon-mast? I dont think so an alloy mast is cheaper - especially if a manufacturer uses a shortend F18 mast...


Sure. Why not?


I'm boatless.
Re: Increased weight [Re: Bob_Curry] #254659
11/12/12 07:55 PM
11/12/12 07:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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tback  Offline
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Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
Raising weight? There goes all the uni wannabees. Ya know, as we age, there is a need for a good lightweight uni/sloop-spin boat. But there is already a ready-to-go heavy sloop class out there--- F18.

Have fun.
BC wink


Agree with Bob +1,0000

Disagree with Wayne from a previous post....about AHPC being Top Dog because they have more boats out there that are over weight and should therefore dictate rule changes.....so some of the other manufacturers built to the F16 specs and now we want to punish them with a rule change ... I don't think that's the class I want to be a part of.





USA 777
Re: Increased weight [Re: tback] #254660
11/12/12 08:16 PM
11/12/12 08:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
I agree with Bob and Tback. I never did understand why owners did not demand the lightest boat that could be built under the rules, especially for the amount they were paying. The fact that it is close to minimum weight is the primary reason I purchased my Blade. It is a critical element in defining the F-16 class. Any discussion about the classs minimum weight this long after the class forming should be about how much and how quickly it should DECREASE! I propose the class weight decrease 1 pound a year for the next ten years as a sarting point.

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