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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254560
11/11/12 09:23 AM
11/11/12 09:23 AM
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brucat Offline
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Dave, I already answered that, go back and read through my posts.

You obviously didn't know how to make this work, or I wouldn't be the chair.

If you slow down and read, you will see that we are trying to make a difference by adding benefits. All we're getting back here are excuses and arguments that just don't work.

It's not about the money, it's about perceived benefit. With this group, it is exceedingly difficult to crack that nut.

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254561
11/11/12 11:13 AM
11/11/12 11:13 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by brucat



If you slow down and read, you will see that we are trying to make a difference by adding benefits. All we're getting back here are excuses and arguments that just don't work.

It's not about the money, it's about perceived benefit. With this group, it is exceedingly difficult to crack that nut.

Mike


Benefit to who? If you don't like what you're hearing then apparently you just don't get it, and never will.

Quote
You obviously didn't know how to make this work, or I wouldn't be the chair.


From the looks of things and your attitude, there will be plenty of opportunity for this to come back and bite you in the kester.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254562
11/11/12 11:21 AM
11/11/12 11:21 AM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
You obviously didn't know how to make this work, or I wouldn't be the chair.


Work for who? The only people unhappy when Dave had the wheel were in an office. The sailors were happy. His volunteers were happy. You need a better grip on exactly what was "wrong" and what needed "fixing." Of the three legs of that stool (office, sailors, volunteers), only one of them is superfluous.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254563
11/11/12 11:38 AM
11/11/12 11:38 AM
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Trust me, I hear what you're saying. The problem is, you guys are far too one-sided.

It is absolutely true that if someone can't work with volunteers or sailors, they fail.

It is equally true that if you can't work with the office, you also fail.

I'm trying to find the balance, because I think there is a lot of good potential here.

You haven't given me anything actionable. Mark has identified some things that we can do, that fit within our charter, and may actually have funding available.

You guys give me reasons to run away. That's been tried, and didn't work either.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: John Williams] #254564
11/11/12 11:47 AM
11/11/12 11:47 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by brucat
You obviously didn't know how to make this work, or I wouldn't be the chair.


Of the three legs of that stool (office, sailors, volunteers), only one of them is superfluous.


+1000000000000000
Then followed with this:
Quote
The problem is, you guys are far too one-sided.

Please define "you guys"...If it's multihull sailors, then you're wasting your time with any more work if that is truly your stance. You're completely upside down on who should get the service.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254565
11/11/12 12:02 PM
11/11/12 12:02 PM
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brucat Offline
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Good golly...

More rhetoric about why US Sailing is the enemy.

If I didn't care about the sailors, I wouldn't spend any time here.

I've been asking how we can improve benefits. All you guys (yes, you) are saying is that nothing can be done.

How about something actionable?

These are not actionable:
Lower dues.
Dues not required.
Throw everyone out of the office.
Send an army of lawyers to open beaches.

These types of things are actionable:
Safety standards.
Training for sailors.
Training for RC.
Rules clinics.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254577
11/11/12 10:36 PM
11/11/12 10:36 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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My proposal was basic math and reality. The sailors interested in the championship will join USS. Those that aren't may join but aren't put in a position where they have to spend money toward something they don't want to and still get to enjoy their part if the sport. If you require membership of an entire fleet, regardless of their intent to partake of the championship, some attendance will be affected and nobody will come on board with the event. Besides, you can probably only get an additional 15 memberships nationwide with the "whole fleet" approach). Look at the negative affect the Hobie edict had on their membership when they tried to leverage their organized racing structure against membership requirements. The situation around this discussion is actually pretty similar. We have an organized racing structure in place that serves us well and USS is a very small part of this picture. USS should have a friendly approach to multihull membership because they really don't have any leverage with our groups from any other direction.

This isn't a self serving position I have. I believe this is what is needed to build a favorable market position for USS. If you have a respectable and friendly championship, not only will more people want to be a part of it, USS will have something positive and marketable. Our local club looks at racing solely as marketing and strives to break even on regattas. If we have a surplus, we reduce next years entry fee for that regatta. The low cost high quality proposition looks favorable for our cub. The approach of USS on its championships seems to have shifted from a benefit to a money making opportunity (particularly when some big name sponsorship came on board). Now it looks like they try to use it to force membership on people. Racing and championships should be a benefit of membership, not a way to drive it.

The big picture here is simple too. The multihull sailor membership base of USS is probably shrinking/shrunk. I really don't think you fix that by strong arming people into joining. You fix it by providing things that multihull sailors are interested in. If people don't want to join, nothing is gained toward long term health of the organization.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Jake] #254596
11/12/12 10:22 AM
11/12/12 10:22 AM
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South Carolina
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And I also want to state again (because this continuously gets twisted around and thrown back at me)...I believe anyone that partakes of a qualifier, and most certainly the ensuing championship, should have a valid USS membership at any time they compete at any level toward this event.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Jake] #254605
11/12/12 11:18 AM
11/12/12 11:18 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Jake,

The achilles heel of your proposal is that very few US Sailors will schedule and pay for two NA's in their season. There is a small group ... perhaps 15 to 20 teams that will play this much and this core of very active sailors is the core turnout for a USSA championship.

In 2012,
When you add in the BYOB factor (charter your own boat) PlUS geography (how close are the events to your home).... plus similar class NAs (F18 = F16 = N17.... or (Hobie 16's Hobie 20s or a single handed Hobie boat to draw a few teams to their event....) the number of sailors willing to compete at their second event, a Stand alone USSA championships is below ten teams. The event can't be credible or financially viable with this small core of sailors.

IMO, the only solution is to partner with a class OD championship and rotate the classes and displines..

The multihull community can NOT screw over host Yacht Clubs who commit to a long regatta and have a terrible turnout of sailors....


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254606
11/12/12 11:23 AM
11/12/12 11:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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I've been down this road before many times. In today's world a US Sailing Membership required regional championship is simply not feasible. If you do have one you would be running it for 3-5 boats that would actually have a shot at going to the Alter Cup. If the Alter Cup starts requiring a regional win. If the Alter Cup remains open to anyone you would not even get the 3-5 boats.

You would have a hard time finding people willing to run the regional event for 3-5 boats. Some areas are stronger than others but other than the Coastal areas I doubt you would get your regionals run.

US Sailing has to learn that you attract more flies with honey than with vineger.



Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Mark Schneider] #254618
11/12/12 01:01 PM
11/12/12 01:01 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake,

The achilles heel of your proposal is that very few US Sailors will schedule and pay for two NA's in their season. There is a small group ... perhaps 15 to 20 teams that will play this much and this core of very active sailors is the core turnout for a USSA championship.

In 2012,
When you add in the BYOB factor (charter your own boat) PlUS geography (how close are the events to your home).... plus similar class NAs (F18 = F16 = N17.... or (Hobie 16's Hobie 20s or a single handed Hobie boat to draw a few teams to their event....) the number of sailors willing to compete at their second event, a Stand alone USSA championships is below ten teams. The event can't be credible or financially viable with this small core of sailors.

IMO, the only solution is to partner with a class OD championship and rotate the classes and displines..

The multihull community can NOT screw over host Yacht Clubs who commit to a long regatta and have a terrible turnout of sailors....


I agree that this can be an issue. However, I do believe that if the qualification/selection process is early enough and the field at those qualifiers deep, you can fill a 20 or 30 team roster at the championship with a couple of early commitment deadlines where you dig deeper in the results to get attending teams. To quote Mike, it will take some bravery. There will probably be a larger local sailor attendance to the event due to proximity - but this happens all the time everywhere. If the championship region and timing are able to be selected carefully to avoid proximity and timing conflicts within that class, I bet you could get a good draw.

I just don't see much of an upside to having it combined with another event. It's nothing but a piece of hardware at that point. There's no need for a budget, management, organization, etc. As a bonus, the host club probably has to live within the USS sponsorship agreements in order to give out the trophy. They probably also have to pay US Sailing some sort of per sailor fee and have to live with the same USS membership requirement of everyone in the entire event. I don't see an event that would be willing to sign up for all that headache to be able to hand out an extra trophy. The cost to benefit ratio isn't favorable to anyone but US Sailing.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254621
11/12/12 01:35 PM
11/12/12 01:35 PM
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There are pros and cons to all approaches. We are trying to come up with something to please as many people as possible.

At some point, we need to agree that having the championship is important enough to put personal preferences aside and support the event.

I am personally trying to work on improving overall benefits of membership. I am keenly aware that no one wants to feel "forced" to do anything. The membership requirement won't (and shouldn't) go away, and shouldn't be the focus. No one really complains about the money, but the lack of perceived benefits.

This is deja-vu all over again. We worked through this exact issue within HCA, with the same arguments, right down to people thinking they were helping by skipping national membership and giving an extra $5 to the local fleet...

We've solved this before and can do it again.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254623
11/12/12 01:42 PM
11/12/12 01:42 PM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by brucat
There are pros and cons to all approaches. We are trying to come up with something to please as many people as possible.

At some point, we need to agree that having the championship is important enough to put personal preferences aside and support the event.

I am personally trying to work on improving overall benefits of membership. I am keenly aware that no one wants to feel "forced" to do anything. The membership requirement won't (and shouldn't) go away, and shouldn't be the focus. No one really complains about the money, but the lack of perceived benefits.

This is deja-vu all over again. We worked through this exact issue within HCA, with the same arguments, right down to people thinking they were helping by skipping national membership and giving an extra $5 to the local fleet...

We've solved this before and can do it again.

Mike


It's not personal preferences - it's about finding a workable solution.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Jake] #254624
11/12/12 01:46 PM
11/12/12 01:46 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
..... It's nothing but a piece of hardware at that point.....



The theory of the case is that competing for the US Sailing Alter cup Trophy is a very worth while endevour... The history and culture of the competitition in all of its previous incarnations is very important to beach cat racers.

If it is just a piece of hardware to the beach cat community... Then I can just stop right now...
I agee... it would simply not be worth it. IMO, All of the details about format and strings attached are small issues.

Bottom line.
What is of value to you?


For me.... I agreed with the above notion that the championship trophy tradition was of value and would do my best to make sure we do not half butt it.

We should also make the championship appealing to the entire community of racers and this is a big turn from recent practice.

We should NOT worry about "special" sailors.... .. by definition... we get the best sailors at a class's NA's....
and for the next year... we have a different discipline... (sloop) and a different set of sailors.... This is a turn from the policy where this event was usally the Second NA's for that select group of competitors.

YMMV.... However, IMO, without your One Design Class's support... the trophy will be retired for lack of participation.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254625
11/12/12 01:54 PM
11/12/12 01:54 PM
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Jake, at some point it's all personal preference. What you feel strongly is absolutely critical, others may feel equally strongly about the polar opposite.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254629
11/12/12 02:39 PM
11/12/12 02:39 PM
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by brucat
EDIT: Another outside-the-box solution I have been thinking about: Since we primarily have two types of sailors (DH sloop and DH spin), would people support a stand-alone championship that featured BOTH fleets? We would need a second trophy, but this could result in doubling the numbers with minimal effort, and would alleviate a lot of the debate about boats to be used.


Why not rotate through all boats (spin/non-spin) and the winner of the combined event gets the big mutha-trophy? So you'd have 20 boats (10 spin, 10 non-spin). Could you get through that many races in a week? Can they rotate on the water between races?

I probably just suggested a huge cluster, but I like the brainstorm you had Mike.


Jay

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254632
11/12/12 03:03 PM
11/12/12 03:03 PM
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Any idea is a good one if people show up...

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254655
11/12/12 05:17 PM
11/12/12 05:17 PM
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Bob_Curry Offline
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Simple.

Take all the Area champions on their boat and have a 10-12 BYOB (all class legal) raced under the P/N numbers for the trophy! No more factories figuring into the mix and much more cost effective. And, IMHO, the current AC is the most costly race of the year so this model doesn't work anymore.

BC wink


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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Bob_Curry] #254657
11/12/12 06:04 PM
11/12/12 06:04 PM
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Maybe another solution is having it one year on spin boats sailed under P/N and the next year on non-spin sailed under P/N? BYOB. This way it includes everyone over a 2 year cycle.

wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254663
11/12/12 10:40 PM
11/12/12 10:40 PM
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Running the event under handicap has been proposed for quite some time, but was not supported by the survey.

It definitely would make it a unique event, that's for sure...

Mike

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