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What to expect from a class, and its members? #254712
11/14/12 09:32 AM
11/14/12 09:32 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Hi all,


in a different discussion some sailors expressed that they did not see much value of being class members.

I think one of the big reasons for not being satisfied with any organization or service you have purchased is the difference in expectations compared to what is delivered.

After considering for a while, I became uncertain if what I expect from a catamaran class is the same as "everybody else" expects..

I also believe that the class have a right to expect a number of things from the class members.


E.g. I expect the following from a class officers
* Taking initative to organizing an annual event
* Representing the class interests in communication with government on all levels
* Organizing and AGM and ballots
* Running class business and collecting membership dues etc.
* Taking initiative to improving the class (racing, equipment, playing field) where seen neccesary

Nice to have from a class is in my opinion:
* A newsletter for ideas and to connect with people. Stay current with developments
* a place to discuss with like minded people


I feel obligated to deliver this to the class
* Membership dues
* Be engaged in discussions and deliver insights I feel might be overlooked.
* Represent the class in a positive manner.
* Network with officers and members
* Take part in needed work and improvements for the class.



What do you others expect from a catamaran class organisation, and what do you feel obliged to do/deliver/give to support the class you are members of?
Is there a disconnect between what you think a class should deliver and what you expect from a class?
Do you feel that you are contributing to the class?


PS: Please, lets try to not mention names or specific classes. The idea here is to chart out expectations, deliverables and what the gap is.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254721
11/14/12 11:58 AM
11/14/12 11:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Quote

Hi all,

in a different discussion some sailors expressed that they did not see much value of being class members.

I think one of the big reasons for not being satisfied with any organization or service you have purchased is the difference in expectations compared to what is delivered.

After considering for a while, I became uncertain if what I expect from a catamaran class is the same as "everybody else" expects..

I also believe that the class have a right to expect a number of things from the class members.


E.g. I expect the following from a class officers
* Taking initative to organizing an annual event
* Representing the class interests in communication with government on all levels
* Organizing and AGM and ballots
* Running class business and collecting membership dues etc.
* Taking initiative to improving the class (racing, equipment, playing field) where seen neccesary


You have built a class that is focused on the top down and is entirely transactional.

The national event cost XXX... the purpose or goal of the class is to crown a champion.

The class you described arranges with some Yacht Club to run the event and the YC will be the Organizing authority and follow your championship conditions (or wing it)

Most sailors will simply add the cost of Class Dues to the cost of the event and be done with it. They don't care if the class purchased a keg of beer for the event with the dues.... it is just a buisness deal... dollars for event.


You may actually collect your dues if the OA makes arrangements to cut you a check for any dues they collect ... but usually, they say that is the class's job to enforce membership..

The alternative is for the class to assume that the NA's will be paid for by the sailors who attend them. The goal of the class could be to use the class dues and focus on the bottom of the class and worry about the last class member and how to retain them....
The goal is to grow the class participation.... not to crown a NA champion.





crac.sailregattas.com
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254722
11/14/12 12:40 PM
11/14/12 12:40 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Some times I dont get you at all Mark. I have not built or described any class. Just outlined my thoughts on the mutual relationship between class organization and members.

It seems like you are touching the purpose of a class, not expectations. A bit of a different topic in my opinion.

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254723
11/14/12 12:59 PM
11/14/12 12:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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First you need agreement on the purpose of the class... You assume that that this agreement exits and then you detail your list of expectations.

If we don't agree on the class purpose... we will never agree on expectations and deliverable's.

Multihulls have a large number of Manufacturer controlled classes.. The builder sets the goals and the class rules and then sells the sailors something.. Nacra organized most of the NA's for their boats in the US and the owners rarely demanded or took control of their own fate...

Builders like Melges have perfected this model and have sold LOTS of OD class sport boats AND a Regatta Racing Circuit. If you like the deal... you buy it.

The culture is.... you buy a regatta service.... The class dues are an annoyance.






crac.sailregattas.com
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254725
11/14/12 01:06 PM
11/14/12 01:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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I feel that there is some history/animosity flowing here and am reluctant to step into it!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: TEAMVMG] #254727
11/14/12 01:11 PM
11/14/12 01:11 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2003
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West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
I feel that there is some history/animosity flowing here and am reluctant to step into it!


Not from my side, and it is a general question.
The reason for the question is that there seems to be a disconnect or gap between expectations and deliverables. I wanted to hear others opinions on this.

File this under "what have you done for sailing today"..

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Mark Schneider] #254728
11/14/12 01:12 PM
11/14/12 01:12 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2003
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West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

First you need agreement on the purpose of the class... You assume that that this agreement exits and then you detail your list of expectations.

If we don't agree on the class purpose... we will never agree on expectations and deliverable's.

Multihulls have a large number of Manufacturer controlled classes.. The builder sets the goals and the class rules and then sells the sailors something.. Nacra organized most of the NA's for their boats in the US and the owners rarely demanded or took control of their own fate...

Builders like Melges have perfected this model and have sold LOTS of OD class sport boats AND a Regatta Racing Circuit. If you like the deal... you buy it.

The culture is.... you buy a regatta service.... The class dues are an annoyance.



I am not out here designing a class or inventing something new. I just want to know about what people expect and believe today.
Thanks for your opinion on One Design manufacturer controlled classes.

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 11/14/12 01:18 PM.
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254729
11/14/12 01:17 PM
11/14/12 01:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Mark is one of the major trolls on this site who feel they have proprietary control of it and of all sailing for that matter. I often think of it as Troll Valley High School, complete with small minded social clique.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: pgp] #254730
11/14/12 01:20 PM
11/14/12 01:20 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
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West coast of Norway
I disagree Pete. I think Mark means well and shares his opinions readily. A troll is just an attention seeker and I dont believe that about Mark.
I dont agree with Mark or understand him all the time though smile

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254732
11/14/12 01:27 PM
11/14/12 01:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Pretty simple to me.
Class provides.
1. Class Rules. Whatever they might be they have to be written down.
2. Nationals regatta where all members of the class can come together once a year to race (and drink beer).

Bonuses some not needed for smaller classes.
1. A way to qualify for Worlds.
2. Regional regattas
3. Point systems to win a Region
4. Group buys for items that are not easily obtained individually such as Masts.
5. Youth grants / Ways to get Youth into class /
6. Seminars / Classes / Tuning guides.
7. A website to obtain information

I'm sure I'm missing things.


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Mike Hill] #254733
11/14/12 01:29 PM
11/14/12 01:29 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Pretty simple to me.
Class provides.
1. Class Rules. Whatever they might be they have to be written down.
2. Nationals regatta where all members of the class can come together once a year to race (and drink beer).

Bonuses some not needed for smaller classes.
1. A way to qualify for Worlds.
2. Regional regattas
3. Point systems to win a Region
4. Group buys for items that are not easily obtained individually such as Masts.
5. Youth grants / Ways to get Youth into class /
6. Seminars / Classes / Tuning guides.
7. A website to obtain information

I'm sure I'm missing things.



Great input Mike!

What do you think the class expects from you?

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Mike Hill] #254734
11/14/12 02:07 PM
11/14/12 02:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
old hand
ksurfer2  Offline
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K

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Pretty simple to me.
Class provides.
1. Class Rules. Whatever they might be they have to be written down.
2. Nationals regatta where all members of the class can come together once a year to race (and drink beer).

Bonuses some not needed for smaller classes.
1. A way to qualify for Worlds.
2. Regional regattas
3. Point systems to win a Region
4. Group buys for items that are not easily obtained individually such as Masts.
5. Youth grants / Ways to get Youth into class /
6. Seminars / Classes / Tuning guides.
7. A website to obtain information

I'm sure I'm missing things.


A few others

Purchase and maintenance of scales and other measurement related equipment
Shipping of this equipment to race venues that it is required at
Maintenance of class website


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254737
11/14/12 02:29 PM
11/14/12 02:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Scales can be simple, relatively inexpensive or elaborate and quite costly.

Opinions about accuracy and suitability are varied and, as always, a point of dissension.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: pgp] #254742
11/14/12 04:05 PM
11/14/12 04:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Scales can be simple, relatively inexpensive or elaborate and quite costly.

Opinions about accuracy and suitability are varied and, as always, a point of dissension.


Scales have not been a point of dissension in the F18 class.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: David Ingram] #254744
11/14/12 04:48 PM
11/14/12 04:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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tback  Offline
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Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by pgp
Scales can be simple, relatively inexpensive or elaborate and quite costly.

Opinions about accuracy and suitability are varied and, as always, a point of dissension.


Scales have not been a point of dissension in the F18 class.


Nor in the F16 class, apparently most boats needn't worry about being under weight ... I'll go back in my hole now ... sorry.


USA 777
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254745
11/14/12 05:24 PM
11/14/12 05:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Actually there was a little head scratching and cogitatin' as to the best way to go about it. But that was way back when.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254751
11/14/12 10:12 PM
11/14/12 10:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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ThunderMuffin  Offline
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T

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Portland, Maine
Quote
in a different discussion some sailors expressed that they did not see much value of being class members.


These people didn't happen to be Nacra 20 sailors - were they?

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #254754
11/14/12 11:19 PM
11/14/12 11:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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No.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #254756
11/15/12 02:36 AM
11/15/12 02:36 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Undecided

These people didn't happen to be Nacra 20 sailors - were they?


No, not Nacra 20 sailors.

Who/what class is not important. What I find important is what sailors expect and think about the question.

From the lack of opinions voiced here the topic seems to be without interest, the expectations are very clear, sailors here expect nothing from classes (and vice versa) or perhaps the topic is very sensitive. I dont know..

Re: What to expect from a class, and its members? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254758
11/15/12 03:41 AM
11/15/12 03:41 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,382
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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JeffS  Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
My thoughts are when I join something I feel obligated, when I join a club I fully support it, but I don't have enough time to support my class so if I can get away without another obligation, I'm happy.


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
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