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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254899
11/18/12 12:59 PM
11/18/12 12:59 PM
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brucat Offline
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I've said all there is to say about the membership requirement. It is not unique to us, and should be viewed as something everyone should be doing before each season anyway, and not viewed as an event fee.

We are not going to ask to "take our ball home." The Alter trophy is a US Sailing trophy, and too many people have worked far too hard to embarrass ourselves like that.

John, apparently you have been forgetting things. I've spent a lot of time on the phone since being thrust into this position, and you were one of the first guys that I spoke with. I'm not sure it will help anyone to discuss this further here.

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254901
11/18/12 03:31 PM
11/18/12 03:31 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
I don't see US Sailing as the problem. They have been very supportive and are taking a loss this year.

Mike


What!? How the hell could the championship be a loss? It cost twice and much and the F16 Nationals (and the food was off the freaking chain BTW) and you guys had Rolex money and 2k from HJ.

Oh wait, I know how it lost money... nevermind.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: David Ingram] #254903
11/18/12 05:23 PM
11/18/12 05:23 PM
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Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
What!? How the hell could the championship be a loss? It cost twice and much and the F16 Nationals (and the food was off the freaking chain BTW) and you guys had Rolex money and 2k from HJ.

Oh wait, I know how it lost money... nevermind.

F16 Nationals - 29 boats * $150 = $4350 (3 days of racing)
US Sailing MC - 6 boats * $325 = $1950 (4 days of racing)

Major Hobie events have ~ $600 to $800 of overhead per day (those are fixed costs, no matter how many boats show up)

That's why the event lost money - and no other reason. Because people didn't show up.

Mike already said the HJ $ was spent on Robbie's clinic.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254907
11/18/12 07:14 PM
11/18/12 07:14 PM
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I was actually referring to Liz's resources, since people love to throw her under the bus. Not only the countless hours of phone calls and emails, but she is there on site, is she not?

The event (club) shouldn't lose money, they would have adjusted expenses as much as possible, and did have the option to cancel prior to the event.

I have nothing but thanks to offer PBYC, Bert, the committee, US Sailing, the regatta volunteers and of course the twelve sailors racing at the event.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 11/18/12 07:23 PM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: mbounds] #254911
11/18/12 08:43 PM
11/18/12 08:43 PM
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Matt - Means had almost as much fun tugboatin' the Proline 20 as Janet Baxter did during the Miami OCR '11. We were hanging on the sun poarch for PBYC on Saturday afternoon when Fairlie spoke up. He told story of a survey they did down in southern Florida - What really draws attendance??? The survey revealed that camaraderie outweighed 'the party' almost 80% / 20%. Throw in a team of Olympic Race Officers, some good weather, and rum = One GREAT F 16 Sailing Festival! I left after Fairlie's story only to run into PU and his guests on their way to the yc.

missed ya, Matt

Too bad about the low turnout; but as Kurt Vonnegut says, "So it goes."

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Mark Schneider] #254912
11/18/12 08:49 PM
11/18/12 08:49 PM
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Wilmington,NC
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave.... It is not all about you!

from the NOR of the Atlantic Coast i420 event this weekend

2. ELIGABILITY AND ENTRY
2.1. This regatta is open to all boats of the International 420 class.
2.2. All sailors must be current members of US Sailing (www.ussailing.org) and the US I-420 Class Association (www.USI420.org).

YACHT CLUBS are part of the system.... It's a partnership... AYC does not want a reggata differnetial of a few bucks... they want everyone to fully participate...
It is a partnership... not a purchase.. and not charity of...
Sailors,
Yacht clubs and their volunteers
US Sailing, ISAF, and the larger racing community that provides the infrastructure.

It's not all about you... This Yacht club is running the event and they expect all of the sailors to be part of the system.

I am as cheap as the next guy... AND I don't like to be told what to do either... but I get the partnership between sailors, Yacht clubs and US Sailing/ISAF and the world wide scene.


Mark,

I don't really care what the 420 class does. I don't know what AYC is. All of the qualifiers I have gone to were not at yacht clubs and the few Altercups I attended were on a public beach. The F18 worlds did not require US sailing membership or I would not have gone. They did have a bunch of US sailing people on some really big boats getting in the way and some US sailing race officers acting like butts at the worlds which was a big turn off .
I did not mean to make it about me just adding my thoughts about why I won't go and maybe why turnout is so low.

In my area most of the regattas are run buy sailors and not yacht clubs so I don't really get the partnership.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254913
11/18/12 08:58 PM
11/18/12 08:58 PM
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brucat Offline
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US Sailing membership was required at the Worlds. Individuals belonging to a member group (class association) did not have to prove individual membership.

You really would have stayed home from the Worlds if you had to join? That actually says more about you than it does US Sailing...

BTW, everyone has a bad day occasionally, even ROs. Certification and experience can mitigate, but only so far.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 11/18/12 09:00 PM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254914
11/18/12 09:08 PM
11/18/12 09:08 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Again, not pot stirring - just historical perspective. The event in the past was REQUIRED to have a clinic to be eligible for the Rolex money (net $500-1000)... sooooo, if Hoyt-Jolley money was spent on a clinic (which is fine) that seems like a new expense...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Mark Schneider] #254923
11/19/12 08:11 AM
11/19/12 08:11 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave.... It is not all about you!

from the NOR of the Atlantic Coast i420 event this weekend

2. ELIGABILITY AND ENTRY
2.1. This regatta is open to all boats of the International 420 class.
2.2. All sailors must be current members of US Sailing (www.ussailing.org) and the US I-420 Class Association (www.USI420.org).

YACHT CLUBS are part of the system.... It's a partnership... AYC does not want a reggata differnetial of a few bucks... they want everyone to fully participate...
It is a partnership... not a purchase.. and not charity of...
Sailors,
Yacht clubs and their volunteers
US Sailing, ISAF, and the larger racing community that provides the infrastructure.

It's not all about you... This Yacht club is running the event and they expect all of the sailors to be part of the system.

I am as cheap as the next guy... AND I don't like to be told what to do either... but I get the partnership between sailors, Yacht clubs and US Sailing/ISAF and the world wide scene.


Ahh, but it was about him and the sailors like him. They were the ones that made the championships happen over a long span of time. If you lose sight of the fact that everything from US Sailing, yacht clubs, boat manufactures IS about the sailor, you might as well stop trying.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254924
11/19/12 08:29 AM
11/19/12 08:29 AM
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brucat Offline
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Right. At the end of the day, the customers are the sailors.

Some of you guys run businesses, right? Aren't your relationships with vendors also a critical part of your business? In my experience, they can make or break you.

You may think vendors (host clubs) are replaceable, but treat them all badly and eventually you'll run out of them. Then how will you serve your customers (sailors)?

And for those of you still living in the past, even IF we could get 10 boats to show up at every qualifier, and they were properly run per the rules (and in what decade did those two things last happen), you couldn't charge enough to break even without raising the prices to the point that no one would come.

US Sailing said that there were no strings with the Rolex money (I know, shocking news for the haters). We tried to offer a discount to those who attended and won their qualifier, but since none of them were run correctly, we were justifiably concerned about legalities (appeals from sailors). Yes, there is precedent for this. Rather than write a blank check to the club, we decided to add a clinic and use a portion of the money for that.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254930
11/19/12 09:25 AM
11/19/12 09:25 AM
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Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Mike,

You are right the customers are the sailors. The problem with US sailing is they have gotten to big and wasteful on there spending (no value for the average sailor). Why can other clubs hold regattas and do ok? Does the Altercup have too many rules that add cost?

I have been self employed for 23 years and have great relationships with my vendors and they have worked hard to keep prices down and good service as the ones that do that best get the business. US sailing is the only organization so there is no competition for them and apparently doing a poor job of giving value to the clubs and sailors. I would say that US sailing would lose most of there membership if the regattas did not force you to have a membership to sail.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: mbounds] #254931
11/19/12 09:41 AM
11/19/12 09:41 AM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by David Ingram
What!? How the hell could the championship be a loss? It cost twice and much and the F16 Nationals (and the food was off the freaking chain BTW) and you guys had Rolex money and 2k from HJ.

Oh wait, I know how it lost money... nevermind.

F16 Nationals - 29 boats * $150 = $4350 (3 days of racing)
US Sailing MC - 6 boats * $325 = $1950 (4 days of racing)

Major Hobie events have ~ $600 to $800 of overhead per day (those are fixed costs, no matter how many boats show up)

That's why the event lost money - and no other reason. Because people didn't show up.

Mike already said the HJ $ was spent on Robbie's clinic.


Matt, don't treat me like I've never organized and run a regatta before.

You're costs are per head and you damn well know there is almost no break for scale up. You're costs and revenue go up and down at almost the same rate regardless of the numbers. Everybody gets fed, shirts, hats...whatever, the only place you get a break is when it comes to trophies and that's if you keep them shallow.

The numbers for this event where known almost from day one so it makes it a pretty easy target to hit.

Let's do a quick and dirty budget comparison.

The USS Multihull Championshp has $41 to per sailor per day to spend, and this is just the fees the sailors pay, no Rolex money (we know where the Rolex money went).

F16 Nats: $25 per sailor per day to spend (3 days) but in reality it was a 4 day event. Everyone was there the day before and everyone was fed extremely well the day before, but I'll just keep the numbers to 3 days so the discrepancy isn't so glaring.

Since you knew the budget and new the numbers you were going to get why would you execute a regatta that you knew was going to lose money? Mike has beat up the previous chairs, excuse me chair for having regattas that were not sustainable. To then execute a regatta you know is a money loser, what the hell?

And for F@#K sake Matt, Mike and Mark stop blaming the sailors. You guys sound like a bunch shop owners blaming the customer for not buying a product they don't want. You noticed I didn't change the text size and bold it, I figured you could read it using the default text.

You guys do know how to put the USS Multihull Championship regatta in the black, right? Two line items come immediately to mind and I guarantee you the sailors would never notice a difference.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254933
11/19/12 10:55 AM
11/19/12 10:55 AM
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Read the minutes. The committee approved a cancellation date (Oct 1) if insufficient entries (15) were received. The club requested that we lift that requirement so they could run the event. As far as US Sailing is concerned, all budgetary decisions are to be made by the host club. If they choose to host an event that loses money, that is acceptable to US Sailing. The committee voiced concern, but ultimately voted to accept the club's request, which also included waiving late fees and deadlines, in support of sailors; with the support of US Sailing.

As for this BS of Mike beating up on old chairs, give me a break. Just as you guys are screaming doom and gloom, I'm pointing out where changes need to be made. We are rebuilding good relations with US Sailing, something that had been sorely lacking for too long. I get attacked here nearly daily, comes with the job.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 11/19/12 11:03 AM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Dlennard] #254934
11/19/12 11:26 AM
11/19/12 11:26 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
Mike,

You are right the customers are the sailors.


Dave and Mike.... you need to take a look at this principle.

Definition of the word CLUB and customer

club/kləb/
Noun:

An association dedicated to a particular interest or activity.
A heavy stick with a thick end, esp. one used as a weapon.


The word customer

Definitions
1. General: A party that receives or consumes products (goods or services) and has the ability to choose between different products and suppliers.


Two points.... Yacht CLUBS have members... Period... They race some days and they organize on other days... They are never considered Customers... and Employees. Fact of the matter... they can't even sell over a certain amount of food and booze to the public... (they have a favorable tax deal relative to a bar or restaurant)

YACHT CLUBS agree to reciprocate services to other Yacht clubs and their members.... So... i get to go racing at another Yacht club's PRIVATE EVENT.. I get to use their bar... I get to use their restaurant.. and their Race Committee. KEY POINT I must be a member. By law... it must be this way... (you can't compete with private businesses) Historically.... reciprocating privileges is relatively new to sailing... The YRA's and US Sailing organized and standardized the reciprocity deals and all other aspects of racing to GROW THE SPORT.


So.... even tho you may think that Yacht Club A is competing with Yacht Club B... They are PARTNERS in a private relationship offering stuff to their members (aka sailors) along with YRAs and US Sailing.

Businesses have customers ... AND you will note... compete against different products and suppliers. Their is NO competition here between YC... there is a partnership between YCs.

Basically, Yacht Clubs opened their doors to cat sailors without insisting on membership.... HOPING that the sailors would understand they were freeloading on the partnership system... Man up and join up with the YRA as a club organization and reciprocate in growing the sport. Even better... cat sailors would join these clubs as members.


The more you focus on the idea and message that sailors are customers... the worse the game.

Mike, we use the term BENEFIT and not PRODUCT because USSA, YRAs and YACHT CLBUS offer benefits to their members.

If you sail big boats... you can see things a bit more clearly..
Sailing World Sells the NOOD Regattas to sailors.
Premiere Racing sells Key West Race week to sailors.
These for profit businesses BUY services from Yacht clubs, they pay for transportation of volunteers to run the events on the water and then sells the package to sailors.... The price is much steeper then when my YRA or Yacht club runs the identical event using the partnership of the sailors, volunteers, Yacht Clubs, YRAs and Sailors. When I choose to race the NOODs... I am a customer! When I race at somebody's club event... I am a member of a reciprocating club.

Dave wrote..
Quote
And for F@#K sake Matt, Mike and Mark stop blaming the sailors. You guys sound like a bunch shop owners blaming the customer for not buying a product they don't want. You noticed I didn't change the text size and bold it, I figured you could read it using the default text.


No Dave.... ( that would be Mittens) I am holding MEMBERS of the partnership accountable for not supporting their event. There was a breakdown this year.

The mistake is made by thinking you are buying a service.... Your analysis of how shop owner (St Andrews) is kicking butt over shop owner (PBYC) is bad for the sport.

FYI to the bystanders. .... US Sailing AND the USSA Multihull committee DO NOT SET THE BUDGET.... Pensacola Beach Yacht Club set the budget, pricing, fees, etc etc based on their costs, what they offer for food etc etc. Do you really think it's valuable to compare St Andrews YC and Pensacola Beach YC here...
For the sake of argument, because I don't have or have ever seen a detailed budget or accounting, the sponsorship money paid the overhead fees... So the bottom line... the YC is running an event for sailors who are members of the system.. Do you think PBYC screwed the sailors... Read the minutes... We have complete transparency here...





crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254935
11/19/12 11:52 AM
11/19/12 11:52 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Mark, for as long as I've known you (and that's a long time) you have always thought you knew "what was bad for the sport" and lately have been more than willing to cut off your nose to spite your face to try and force it. In all those years you haven't solved the problem which leads to the theory that either you ARE the problem or maybe you're just wrong, or both. The political references are laughable and hypocritical at best. You guys seem to operate like D.C.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254936
11/19/12 12:02 PM
11/19/12 12:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
One thing that hurt attendance is that this regatta was held in the Fall. This regatta needs to be held in the Spring. Yet this Spring is now too close to hold another. I'd like to see the team regroup and hold off and announce a new Altercup regatta in Spring 2014.

I've been to 5 Altercups. Every one was a great event. I have no idea why US Sailing thinks that the 10 boat event is not a good idea? It worked for years and every competitor that I've ever talked to throught it was a quality event that produced a Champion.

I think I heard Charter Fees were like $2500 or something. That makes it impossible to gain attendance outside of the class.

Having it be an open event has removed the exclusivity of the event. We already have an F16 and F18 open event. No need for another.

And final nail was no provided boats even though the boats weren't completely provided in the past. I know we paid a Charter fee. The charter fee was very reasonable.

The provided boats enabled competitors to come in from anywhere in the country and made it very convenient to attend for the competitor.

I'd like to thank all the past chairman that did a great job under tough conditions to pull off a great event.

Mike just got dealt a bad hand. Not sure he really listened to the sailors because I know I filled out a survey and was very clear that a bring your own boat event wouldn't work. Perhaps the survey was filled out by internet sailors? I'm not sure.

Since this format obviously didn't work I'd hope they would rethink the decisions made and perhaps listen to past chairman and competitors to help find a solution.

Last edited by Mike Hill; 11/19/12 12:04 PM.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254937
11/19/12 12:19 PM
11/19/12 12:19 PM
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brucat Offline
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In case it's not obvious, I do have respect and admiration for those who were able to pull this off in the past. They were the first people that I called. Some have been helpful throughout the entire process. Others, not so much...

Mike, lots of people (myself included) were against BYOB. I came into this thinking there was no way BYOB would fly. BUT, I kept an open mind, knowing that the long-term relationship was more important than any one detail.

I was fully ready, and already in Jack's office with ideas, to move heaven and earth to come up with $5,000 extra to make up for the gap between the H/J funding and previous budgets ($7,000 total), to continue with provided boats.

Reality sucks. Bert researched the costs to do a provided boat event at PBYC and the math adds up to nothing less than $10,000 for 10 Hobie 16s. It approached $20,000 for F16s and F18s.

Despite all the venom being spewed here, no one has provided a workable solution to crack that nut.

Want to earn my respect? Help us pay for that, or accept reality and let it go, and work with us to move forward.

Mike

BTW, the survey was split on this. There is a sizeable silent group that felt alienated by the old format.

Last edited by brucat; 11/19/12 12:25 PM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Mark Schneider] #254939
11/19/12 12:56 PM
11/19/12 12:56 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Want to find the key party in any relationship? Figure out which one can exist without the other....it isn't the yacht clubs or USS.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254941
11/19/12 01:15 PM
11/19/12 01:15 PM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
...
BTW, the survey was split on this. There is a sizeable silent group that felt alienated by the old format.


I would argue that those who felt alienated probably wouldn't attend anyway....and the evidence supports this a good bit. I think that the results from the survey were skewed somewhat because there were probably a lot of people weighed in the scores that probably wouldn't even attend their own class' national championship.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254942
11/19/12 01:15 PM
11/19/12 01:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Mike (Levesque) - I have been encouraged to believe that manufacturers will return to deeply discounted charter fees in the event that they again receive title-sponsor-level recognition. Let's face it - Hobie, Nacra, Falcon Marine, and AHPC have done far (far, FAR) more to support the event than Rolex ever has... that's not a ding on Rolex. We're just not their demographic.

Consider exploring a path forward that allows the event (designated a Championship or not) to book our own sponsorship deals. If the boat builder or provider gets top billing, with a couple of other high-level national deals (Zhik, for example, is a better supporter for us than Gill), followed by the host club's selection of sponsors, all splashed onto a better, redesigned web page for photos, video and mark-by-mark updates like we used to get (thanks Darline and Jamie!) that is maintained by someone on-site, I think the event can be newly invigorated. I agree with Mike (Hill) that Spring 2014 should be the target and announced as such ASAP, to allow for publicity and planning. Re-commit to a qualification system that results in a who's who, rather than a who's free. Engage the class leadership in the US to re-kindle a spirit of cooperation and a feeling of a shared, vested interest. All of these are recycled ideas, but I encourage their consideration anyway.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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