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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: waterbug_wpb] #254981
11/19/12 04:31 PM
11/19/12 04:31 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Firstly why should every regatta attendee pay extra for a race they most likely, won't do.Kind of like socialism.Screw that.

Nope, if I want the winner getting a bottle of rum I'll buy it for him, not that that would help the Alter cup.
So you won't toss in another $5 entry fee so the RC can buy a bottle of rum for the winner?

I'm not a socialist kind of guy, but I see this as more of a support the fleet kind of thing. Just wish the Alter Cup "meant" something like it used to.


I don't think rum would be what USS would spend the money on . More like "office fees" meaning general fund kinda stuff. Just my opinion, but that's the way it usually goes and no I'm definitely not willing to pay more for that.
In the past I've had rum arrangements that never worked out. You know who you are.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #254983
11/19/12 04:35 PM
11/19/12 04:35 PM
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Naples, FL
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I agree that while some "administrative fees" probably need to be part of every budget, it shouldn't be the bulk of any potential revenue


Jay

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Dlennard] #254986
11/19/12 04:47 PM
11/19/12 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dlennard
I have to agree with Bob that US Sailing is the problem with there rules and fees. Sailors don't attend the qualifiers in my opinion because of the extra fees at least I don't any more and won't in the future. I remember driving to a qualifier and paying 70.00 for a family membership so my wife could race with me in one event which we won but did not go to the Altercup because of cost and time. I personally won't go to another qualifier or Altercup because of cost and value. There are so many more events to go to that are funner and don't have the added US Sailing cost. How many boats were at the F16 Nationals the week before ? I guess the cost was less is why it was attended
more.
This years Altercup just tarnished the trophy with no past champions and such a small turnout. I do give the sailors that went kudos for going, but I don't think you could call it a real Altercup with so few of the best sailors in the US attending.
Also did want to say thanks to all the past and current chairmen and volunteers for your time and efforts on putting on the events.

Mike why don't you poll the question about the event leaving US Sailing and there rules and see what you get or was that in the survey you already did.



+1. I agree with Dave on all his points. I used to love the Alter Cup. It was a real honor to just qualify and be there with the best sailors and I thought the format was great fun and unique.

Unfortunately my distaste for US Sailing currently exceeds my desire to fork out extra money for their events. That is just how it is. This is an association that will need to work harder to gain the trust and loyalty of the multihull community.

Originally Posted by brucat
US Sailing membership was required at the Worlds. Individuals belonging to a member group (class association) did not have to prove individual membership.

You really would have stayed home from the Worlds if you had to join? That actually says more about you than it does US Sailing...

BTW, everyone has a bad day occasionally, even ROs. Certification and experience can mitigate, but only so far.

Mike


Hmmm, it really should tell you something about US Sailing. He is not alone in that thinking. Whether you think it is justified or not you should not ignore the fact that sentiment is quite wide spread currently indicating something is wrong.

I'm curious about something since my experiences with US Sailing are not so recent any more...
Back about seven years ago US Sailing's designated multihull coach told me that he had never sailed a cat and did not really have much interest in the class. Is that still the case? Because you can't expect much in terms of youth development when your national organization shows that much lack of interest.

Maybe it is not just bad attitude towards multihulls? Based on our [lack of] success in London are there other underlying issues within US Sailing that need to be addressed?

Regardless, it is a shame that the turnout was this low this year. Maybe the trophy should be retired.

Olli

Last edited by oxj; 11/19/12 04:52 PM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: waterbug_wpb] #254987
11/19/12 04:52 PM
11/19/12 04:52 PM
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Greenville SC
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


So you won't toss in another $5 entry fee so the RC can buy a bottle of rum for the winner?

I'm not a socialist kind of guy, but I see this as more of a support the fleet kind of thing. Just wish the Alter Cup "meant" something like it used to.



$5 used to buy rum for the winner is quite a but different than paying $10 for a regatta that many of us do not care about.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254988
11/19/12 04:57 PM
11/19/12 04:57 PM
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Well, we WERE making progress in this thread...

Insert dead horse here. Whoops, too late.

What US Sailing wants are workable solutions, not a list of complaints and requests for special treatment.

Keelboats are out of the Olympics. They still join and attend their championships. You're not as special as you want us to think.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 11/19/12 05:01 PM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254989
11/19/12 05:09 PM
11/19/12 05:09 PM
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oxj Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Well, we WERE making progress in this thread...

Insert dead horse here. Whoops, too late.

What US Sailing wants are workable solutions, not a list of complaints and requests for special treatment.

Keelboats are out of the Olympics. They still join and attend their championships. You're not as special as you want us to think.

Mike


You are sounding like someone from US Sailing. I'm getting that old fuzzy warm feeling all over...

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254991
11/19/12 06:04 PM
11/19/12 06:04 PM
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Unless I'm mistaken, everyone that went to London had to qualify by winning trials. So, they were the best of the USA. Again, not to kill your special feelings, but the USA is just one country represented at the Olympics. There are only three medal colors, and many, many teams. Of course, all of this will be reviewed and heads will roll. Feeling special isn't limited to cat sailors; every red blooded American demands gold across the board at every Olympics. But, their results at the Olympics were the fault of the coaches... How???

Just so I'm up to speed, let me see if I at least have the math worked out.

No one wants to join US Sailing unless they're going to the Alter Cup finals. The Alter Cup finals (old format) only allowed 20 teams. The boats for a 10-boat event (old format) currently cost $10,000 to $20,000. So, for $2,000 in dues ($50 MPP membership times 40 sailors), we demand a fully funded, provided boats Alter Cup, or we're going to ask for it to be retired or "returned" to "us."

I don't have to talk to anyone at US Sailing to realize what a complete joke this is.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254992
11/19/12 06:30 PM
11/19/12 06:30 PM
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oxj Offline
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I don't understand why you think 20 teams is not enough? At every Alter Cup I've been to, there were under 10 teams that really stood out from the rest of the fleet as the contenders.
This is supposed to be championship representing the top sailors from the US multihull community. 20 teams is more than plenty. Quantity \= quality.

I think your problem is that no one wants to join US Sailing unless... well no one wants to join US Sailing I suppose until people get enough in return of what they deem to be worth the expense. For everyone that is going to be different.

For me personally I would pay a much larger membership fee to a national organization that represents multihull sailing, has a development program, and a great championship.

Not only does US Sailing offer none of those for me, my personal experiences dealing with them as a multihull sailor (Miami OCR, Olympic trials and the World Sailing games) has been nothing but a complete disappointment.

But hey, I know the sailors aren't important. You just want them to join.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254993
11/19/12 07:02 PM
11/19/12 07:02 PM
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It's not just me, or just US Sailing. Sailors in the survey overwhelmingly indicated that 20 boats on the water were the minimum acceptable for a relevant championship.

There is a whole new leadership team at US Sailing. Again, make a workable proposal to solve any issues that you see and we will try to work with them. Just listing a bunch of old complaints and demands will not return the desired outcome.

I had a director tell me about another place he had previously worked. He stated that in employees that went to management with problems and no proposed solutions were fired. US Sailing doesn't operate that way, and it is a bit extreme; but certainly has some merit. Proposing an idea that isn't adopted, then sulking and complaining for years afterwards has never been accepted anywhere I've worked, either.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #254996
11/19/12 07:47 PM
11/19/12 07:47 PM
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This is not workplace. I don't really give rat's a$$ about US Sailing at this point and I know I'm not alone. So your attitude towards the sailors is that - ok, so you got screwed in the past. Get over it and come help US Sailing to improve. Yeah good luck with that.

The point of my post(s) was that each sailor currently not willing to join are not getting their money's worth for whatever reason(s). And whether you think those reasons are valid or not makes no difference. Otherwise they would join. It's that simple. Like it or not you will need to address the majority of sailor complaints and concerns in order to make progress.

I gave you my 'demands'; development program (for multihull sailors) and a great championship. A complete lack of attention to cat sailors and a bring your own (midget :)) boat event sure doesn't cut it - and I live five miles from this year's regatta site.

Now go find out Dave's concerns, and then the next guy's and the next guy's and so on. You will need to address much more than just their concerns about the Alter Cup as long as it requires a US Sailing membership. That was my point.

You are trying to fix the Alter Cup and ignoring the fact that it requires people to join US Sailing.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254997
11/19/12 08:18 PM
11/19/12 08:18 PM
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Um, no. If you read the entire post, you would know that my plan is to improve the value of membership. The Alter Cup is one small piece, and very few people participate, regardless of the format.

Very few people are involved with Olympic campaigns as well. But, we are being asked to be involved and help lead the Olympic / Development planning at US Sailing. When was the last time that happened?

And, as you've seen by just a few of the reactions here, no one wants their money to subsidize someone else's benefits.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254998
11/19/12 08:21 PM
11/19/12 08:21 PM
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Boston, Ma
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Some progress is being made in the development program:

1. The multihull qualifier for the ISAF Youth Worlds will be selected at the same event as all the other classes. The event will be January 18-21 in Clearwater in F16s. Having the multihull treated the same as every other youth class is a very good thing.

2. I don't know if it is confirmed, but during the multihull council meeting it was discussed that the youth multihull championship will be included as part of the US Sailing Youth Champs. This is also a very, very good thing. Youth champs is probably the most competitive youth regatta of the season, with an application process to be accepted and a deep wait list. Having multihulls there will raise exposure and awareness amongst the top youth sailors in the country- which is excellent. Youth champs also has a clinic component with outstanding coaches, which will benefit those attending.

These changes, combined with the excellent work by established programs like Red Gear and SYSP bodes well for multihull development.

I think you will also see a lot of US Sailing Team coaching and support going towards Nacra 17 teams that qualify for a spot on the Team Sperry Top Sider or Development Team.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #254999
11/19/12 08:22 PM
11/19/12 08:22 PM
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BTW, why is it impossible to have a meaningful discussion here without it breaking down to "US Sailing has done X, Y, Z things I don't like, and no matter what, they won't change and you won't be successful?"

Moving forward requires letting go of the past. Note, I didn't say forget about the past and its lessons; but clinging so tightly to old ideas and paradigms will not allow us to ever break out of this rut.

EDIT: We posted at the same time, but great points, Jeff. All of those things are confirmed.

Some of you still in denial should talk to Sarah about the opportunities she's enjoyed over the past year thanks to US Sailing.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 11/19/12 08:26 PM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #255005
11/20/12 01:15 AM
11/20/12 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
It's not just me, or just US Sailing. Sailors in the survey overwhelmingly indicated that 20 boats on the water were the minimum acceptable for a relevant championship.

There is a whole new leadership team at US Sailing. Again, make a workable proposal to solve any issues that you see and we will try to work with them. Just listing a bunch of old complaints and demands will not return the desired outcome.

I had a director tell me about another place he had previously worked. He stated that in employees that went to management with problems and no proposed solutions were fired. US Sailing doesn't operate that way, and it is a bit extreme; but certainly has some merit. Proposing an idea that isn't adopted, then sulking and complaining for years afterwards has never been accepted anywhere I've worked, either.

Mike


You've hit on a major stumbling block. Leadership at USS is so disdainful of the membership they think of them as employees and not very valuable employees at that.

I encourage all to join USS so we can mount a coup.

Last edited by pgp; 11/20/12 01:16 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255009
11/20/12 06:46 AM
11/20/12 06:46 AM
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Thanks Pete. This is exactly the kind of ambiguous scare tactic that win elections for people.

Specifically, who do you have a problem with, and are they still in office?

EDIT: More importantly, how can we work WITH US Sailing, regardless of who is in office?

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 11/20/12 07:05 AM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255010
11/20/12 07:02 AM
11/20/12 07:02 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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It is unfortunate that the Youth Championships will be held on the same weekend as Tradewinds, it was a lot of fun having all those youngsters around at TW last year.

I am glad that they will be able to "Showcase" Youth Multihulls at Clearwater, going 20 knots downwind, right next to...Lasers and 420's (? or do they use 470s?), that should open some eyes!

I hope there's good wind and the Multihull kids put on a great show!

I was flying with a couple former Navy pilots a couple days ago out of Dubai. There was a big flat screen TV in the gate area as we were boardign our jet to come home. Playing on the TV was some of the AC45 highlight videos, fleet racing, hauling butt, then it cut to the AC72 up on the foils. These two had sailed sailed Hobie 16's 'back in the day, at Pensacola', but they had no idea about all the (new) speed developments with cats.

So I had to whip out one of my Catsailor Magazines and show them all the spinnaker cats. They were both impressed. I hope our Youth can get some more interest generated when they are out on the water next to the traditional Youth Boats.


Blade F16
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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: pgp] #255012
11/20/12 07:10 AM
11/20/12 07:10 AM
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I like the idea of a coup but I'm afraid we would not have the numbers against the massive monohull mentality.

Instead, why don't we revive NAMSA? It definetely is formed by multi sailors for multi sailors.

wink


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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255013
11/20/12 07:14 AM
11/20/12 07:14 AM
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At this point, the only thing that's been announced is the ISAF Worlds qualifier in Clearwater. The NOR is here: http://sailingteams.ussailing.org/Assets/SailingTeams/Youth+Teams/13YWQ_NOR.pdf

Last year, this doubled as the Youth Multihull Championship (Stephens trophy), but there are no notices online about this.

What was announced in San Fran was that the Stephens trophy committee was disbanded and absorbed into the overall Youth Championship Committee; and that the multihull event will be held at the same time and location as the rest of the Youth (420s, Lasers, etc.). Sarah is our rep on the combined committee.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255014
11/20/12 07:18 AM
11/20/12 07:18 AM
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Bob,

The governing body for sailing is US Sailing. If we want to be taken seriously internationally, it's (well past) time to accept that and figure out how to make it work for us.

ISAF is highly unlikely to recognize splinter groups, so moving away from US Sailing would probably result in removal of a place for us from Olympics, ISAF Youth Worlds, Pan Am Games, and other major events.

Need to watch out for those unintended consequences...

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255015
11/20/12 07:39 AM
11/20/12 07:39 AM
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Not sure about other European countries but over here membership to the national sailing organisation is mandatory if you want to compete in "official" races (races of all the ISAF registered classes).
Some events have an exemption from this rule (actually only Texel really), this is solved by having the option to enter as Gold or Silver fleet.

Membership to the national organisation runs through the yacht/sailing clubs, I think something like $10 is transferred from every membership fee (total membership fees are usually between $50-$150/y depending which club you want to a member of obviously).

What does our national organisation do for catsailors?
Probably about as little as yours does by the sound of it, although they have ordered a pair of N17s so I guess that is money well spend for the Olympic hopefuls.

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