Announcements
New Discussions
Trip to TX SPI or CC in Early Oct
by Banzilla. 07/05/21 11:17 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? #255096
11/21/12 11:05 AM
11/21/12 11:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
The US Olympic program charts a new course.

Recomondations pdf

Multihulls have a brand new class.... a brand new format (mixed) and a primitive development program that to date is bottom up.

The Multihull Racing committee does not really have much to do with Olympic stuff... So... the Olympic stuff will require action at the level of your club, class and individual support.

What do you think about the plan?

What role will your Yacht club (paper or real) play

What role will your class play?

What should be the role of the rank and file sailors?


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255097
11/21/12 11:36 AM
11/21/12 11:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Bob Merrick, who has actually done this before, described the recomondations as interesting.

I have to say... I am not impressed... Lots of word salad and nothing particularly insightful... IMO.

They want a Team approach with 4 to 6 teams on the pathway to a medal... backstoppped by a Youth Development program.

The amount of sailing in Olympic equipment in the US is minimal now.... What changes on the ground to make this possilbe (apart from lasers)over the next 3 quads?

Multihulls have a unique olympic pathway of
Learn to race in something... move up to Hobie 16 move up to F16 move up to Nacra 17..... Alternatively... you jump into the N17 class and get coached up for a quad,

So...Reality check... we have Zero N17's now with first container in January. and with 50 US F18 teams at nationals.

We have 30 F16's at NA's...after 10+ years of growth. with 10 youth teams.

We have 75 H16's at NA's after 45 years of growth... with 15 youth teams.
The country is huge and critical mass is damn hard to achieve.

HOW is this going to work?
I don't see how their plan manages reality of the critial mass problem ... and then develops sailors who need YEARS of coaching.

Mention of clubs purchasing boats on the development pathway was made... but this seems unrealistic given how little sailing actually happens in these boats for most clubs and their members. (apart from lasers. For Multihulls, I don't know of a single yacht club that has a fleet of 5 club boats.... much less Olympic pathway equipment.

Mention about the coaching deficit and the need for Olympic experience.... How do they solve that one in Multi's.

If I have a drink in hand.... I could echo Bob M' It will be interesting if they can implement the plan..

If I have several drinks in me.... Are these people living on this planet?

Sigh... Am I missing something??


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255100
11/21/12 12:15 PM
11/21/12 12:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


Sigh... Am I missing something??


Yeah, you need to adjust those figures for mixed crews


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: TEAMVMG] #255101
11/21/12 12:32 PM
11/21/12 12:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
Yeah, you need to adjust those figures for mixed crews


Can't do that..... the numbers would look even smaller...

(I accept the mixed olympics... I don't think it's a great solution by any stretch....) at the development level.... it looks like OPEN will be the pathway...


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255103
11/21/12 01:08 PM
11/21/12 01:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Yeah, you need to adjust those figures for mixed crews


Can't do that..... the numbers would look even smaller...

(I accept the mixed olympics... I don't think it's a great solution by any stretch....) at the development level.... it looks like OPEN will be the pathway...


So is it about "looks" or facts? Post the facts or don't waste the bandwidth.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #255104
11/21/12 01:23 PM
11/21/12 01:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
The facts are ..

There is a list of Helms sailors... rank ordered who will be getting boats ... presumably one through 20.

20 names are on the list.. The heart may be willing but the bank acccount weak.... so... how many of the 20 are still in the game and will get boats .... who knows..

on the ground... zero teams with boats.
AFAIK.... Sarah and JC are the only team annouced to be on a campaign.

JW may know who is in charge of the list and boat distribution and what other teams are forming.

So... Fact.... One US team....

(I still laugh at the assurance of the ISAF folks who insisted that any selection they would make on equipment would result in ISAF events in the fall after Weymouth because the builders would deliver. ....... right!!)



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255107
11/21/12 01:35 PM
11/21/12 01:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
addict
catandahalf  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
OOPS!?

The panel included Ed Adams (Middletown, R.I.), Andrew Campbell (San Diego, Calif.), Jay Cross (New York, N.Y.), Andrew Kostanecki (Bridgewater, Vt.), Bill Martin (Dearborn, Mich.), Jack Mathias (Buffalo, N.Y.), Jonathan McKee (Seattle, Wash.), Cory Sertl (Rochester, N.Y.), and Tim Wadlow (Beverly, Mass.).

http://sailingteams.ussailing.org/News/Olympic_Review_Panel.htm

Show me any direct affiliation/ dedication to multihull evolution in the panel member roster (hoping for at least one member with the multihull culture in his background)? Who is there on the panel that has been on the water with the new generation of Olympic - hopeful, catamaran athletes? Why are there no outreach plans other than "the Miami Pipeline?" Is the Olympic effort in catamarans restricted to just a privileged few, or does some team that sails on inland lakes in GA have a chance?

I will say again, then go hide in the back of a cave, that the future of the National Multihull Championship is dependent on the regatta's niche within the core (base) development of Olympic minded, athletic talent. The 2012 Alter Finals proved the merit earned in cat sailing by youth and women sailors. It's time the USSA stepped up to the plate and offered all interested catamaran athletes a part of the pie. Use the Hoyt Jolley money for incentives to attend the National US Championship Regatta such as free entry and free coaching by well trained Olympic - level coaches (Robbie for example). The Semi Finals should be feeder races/training for the Finals, and the winner of the Finals should be provided incentives for joining "The Team" for an international event or two during the year.

The real bottom line and highest road we can take is based on Gordon's words in the Deed of Gift, "Whereas, Gordon Isco is donating a perpetual trophy to be awarded to the National Multihull Champion."

Now, if our National Champion does not have a level playing field to compete for a berth on the US Olympic Sailing Team, then why have the event (NMHC) - especially in the context of an Olympic Quad?

Page two - Part 3 of the Recommendations begins with, "Make domestic training a strength and run more Olympic class regattas in the US to bring the whole class/program up to speed, especially in years one and two of the quad."

It's time for US Sailing to poney up and play a leadership (of benevolence) role in the future of multihull sailing. A titch of vision here and a bit of dedication there might save the National Championship and push out the top of the Olympic pyramid.

This will require pro - active diplomacy and ground work. The MRC best hoof it down south this winter and become known by the sailors they hope to represent. Let's see the MRC leaders on the beach, not just read their ops and claims on Catsailor.

The Hobie Alter National Championship Series, including the Semi Finals, meets the intent of these recommendations presented by the panel. Who will be the ambassadors for making it Happen?

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255110
11/21/12 01:39 PM
11/21/12 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
How many Olympic Teams do you think are needed?

How many "Teams" does the USA need, to get into the Multhull Olympics?

How many Olympic slots are going to be awarded to each country?

One.

One very good one to win it.

I think that's why there is very little support amongst the Club Racers for any kind of Olympic development.

Oh, that and the fact that US Sailing voted the Multihulls out, and Kites are in...



Blade F16
#777
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Timbo] #255111
11/21/12 01:49 PM
11/21/12 01:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Timbo
How many Olympic Teams do you think are needed?

How many "Teams" does the USA need, to get into the Multhull Olympics?

How many Olympic slots are going to be awarded to each country?

One.

One very good one to win it.

I think that's why there is very little support amongst the Club Racers for any kind of Olympic development.

Oh, that and the fact that US Sailing voted the Multihulls out, and Kites are in...



Actually, much to the Kite sailor's dismay, they're back out again with a change that happened recently.


Jake Kohl
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Timbo] #255112
11/21/12 01:50 PM
11/21/12 01:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by Timbo
Oh, that and the fact that US Sailing voted the Multihulls out, and Kites are in...


OK... what did I miss? Last I heard, cats are in and kites are out (boards have been reinstated). Keelboats, still out.

Bert, quit posturing while you're ahead. You have been part of the Multihull Council for many, many years and how many regattas, in how many parts of the country have you attended? It's not like we're all retired with bottomless bank accounts and no family obligations.

Mike

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: brucat] #255115
11/21/12 03:48 PM
11/21/12 03:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
addict
sail7seas  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
Who are the N17 teams for this ISAF event in Feb 2013? (perhaps F16?)
http://origin.sailing.org/worldcup/38989.php

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255119
11/21/12 08:14 PM
11/21/12 08:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
NOR says Nacra 17, with a quota of 40 boats...

Guess this will be the first real test to see if Nacra can deliver.

Mike

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: brucat] #255121
11/22/12 01:58 AM
11/22/12 01:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
old hand
H17cat  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
Originally Posted by brucat
NOR says Nacra 17, with a quota of 40 boats...

Guess this will be the first real test to see if Nacra can deliver.


Mike


Also notes, ten boat minimum.

Last edited by H17cat; 11/22/12 01:59 AM.
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255126
11/22/12 09:23 AM
11/22/12 09:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Gunnar Larsen(owner of NACRA ) said in an interview on Catsailing news that they were ahead of schedule and should have more boats, than the minimum required by ISAF, built on time.
http://www.catsailingnews.com/2012/11/rio-2016-olympics-nacra-17-in-detail.html


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255135
11/22/12 02:37 PM
11/22/12 02:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Built vs delivered and race-ready are two different things. Hopefully they pull this off seamlessly.

Mike

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255167
11/25/12 05:29 PM
11/25/12 05:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Personally, I love Olympic Sailing. I follow the results, I read the regatta reports, I follow the blogs of various campaigns. Why do I like Olympic Sailing so much? It's because I know the players, I can relate to the boats, and I race against many of the sailors. It's much more personal to me than any of the pro circuits.

Looking at the recommendations, I don't see anything ground breaking, but a further move towards a highly structured development approach. I think that is a good thing. Part of the problem with the current system in the US is that you need a ton of money to even begin a campaign. I really hope that if a clear pathway is established, then a sailor who is talented, motivated, and FULLY buys into the program can benefit from the increase of sponsorship the US Sailing team has received.

As far as what I plan to do to help, I will support my friends and family who are planning to start Olympic campaigns. As the F18 Eastern Area Rep I hope to setup some youth or mixed clinics to encourage more new sailors to enter our fleet. I would also crew on a Nacra 17 if needed!

The youth pathway to an Olympic multihull is also a great question, and I think it will go something like:

Opti-420-F16-Nacra 17

I think optis and 420s are fine, as long as we encourage talented sailors to progress quickly, possibly by lowering the maximum age of the Opti and getting kids out of 420s and into i420s/29ers/F16s much sooner. I also think the Hobie 16 should be left out of that pathway- if a top youth sailor has a choice between a non-spinnaker and dated looking Hobie 16 vs. a 29er, they are going to take the 29er option. I think the youth development multi must have a spinnaker if it is going to attract top talent.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #255168
11/25/12 06:43 PM
11/25/12 06:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Good points Jeff


Quote
I also think the Hobie 16 should be left out of that pathway- if a top youth sailor has a choice between a non-spinnaker and dated looking Hobie 16 vs. a 29er, they are going to take the 29er option. I think the youth development multi must have a spinnaker if it is going to attract top talent.



I think the Hobie 16 pathway is outside of the Yacht Club circuit. Families and sailors can get a start and taste of high performance sailing in the adult regatta circuit that is already well established in the US. In the Mid atlantic, we have a well establshed JO's for Hobie 16 Juniors. Leave well enough alone here.

Sailors who have the talent and drive should be coached to move into the next level when it's time.

The key issue is the F16 pathway through Yacht clubs... We don't have clubs with F16 club boats that could run a program year after year.... For example, Annapolis Yacht Club owns 6 i420's... the Club moves their top juniors into i420s and has a dedicated coach, they don't get stuck in club 420's for more then a year or two. ....Families with serious kids... get their own boat to agument the fleet and compete.

I hope they do a lot more thinking and leading at the club level.... they tend to take this top down approach... (We will have one expert coach in the discipline for the 6 Olympic teams we have in the pipeline).... How about 6 Olympic coaches at the yacht Club level scattered around the country and let the 6 olympic sailors use their own personal coaches when it matters.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255169
11/25/12 07:22 PM
11/25/12 07:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
The Mid Atlantic JOs is great, nothing wrong with that.

Where I see an issue, is with the path top talent takes to Olympic Level sailing. Right now our top young sailors race optis until they are 14 or 15, either in a yacht club or increasingly through a travel team. I personally think this is too long in optis, but why would a well paid professional opti coach want to move them on any quicker? Once out of optis, the majority go to Lasers or Club 420s. That is fine, but most stay in Club 420s all the way until college. This MUST change! Some programs are moving sailors into i420s or 29ers, which is great, but that is the exception, not the norm.

I personally believe, for the US to be successful at the Olympics, we need to transition more sailors to higher performance boats sooner, and provide them regionalized HP coaching in those classes. For the multihull to be successful, it needs to compete against the i420 and 29er, in addition to the Laser. The F16 may not be the solution due to cost, but I firmly believe the boat must have a kite and more modern look.

Just my opinion.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255181
11/26/12 09:19 AM
11/26/12 09:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
I think if you want to develop a catamaran training pipline, you should forget about both Opti's and 420's and start kids on the Wave, because it's indestructable, won't fill with water if you capsize it, you can put more than one kid on it, and Dad/Mom can get into it too. Then move them directly to the F16, unless something comes along between the two.

Ask Barb Short about how popular the Wave is with kids. When I started my own kids in an Opti, at age 8, the HATED IT! "It's TOO SLOW!" etc. When we went on vacation to a Sarasota hotel, there was a Wave for rent on the beach. I took them out on it, showed them how to tack it, and got off it and let them have fun.

They LOVED IT! They wanted me to buy one when we got home, and they had an Opti in the back yard, on the lake....but they never sailed it.

"It's too slow!"


Blade F16
#777
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255183
11/26/12 09:29 AM
11/26/12 09:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Not a huge opti fan myself, but there is something to be said for a boat that is small and light enough that kids can move it around themselves, step the mast themselves, and launch themselves.

I think the key is to allow kids to move on to faster and more exciting boats when they are ready instead of keeping them in the opti until they are 14 or 15. It is a pretty good learn to sail boat, but the hardcore opti racing scene is a bit out of control in my opinion.

The Open Bic is another option, and I was happy to see a club on Lake Erie where I used to teach got a fleet of those!


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 25 guests, and 231 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
bmcmurr3, sdm27, CanadaMetal, Jamil, Maistrello
8113 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,389
Posts267,027
Members8,113
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1