Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255184
11/26/12 09:35 AM
11/26/12 09:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
I agree about 15yr. olds in Opti's, that just ain't right!

Maybe start them at age 6-8 in Opti's, then about 10-12, put them on a Wave, then at 14 go to the F16, certainly by age 15 they could be on an F16..

I think we should get input from some of our Junior cat racers, they are closer to the source (youth!) and can say what they would have liked to sail when they were 10-14.

I think the only reason the Opti is so popular is, it's cheap, small, Dad can put it on the roof of the family car and the club can stack a zillion of them on a rack so storage space is not an issue. Oh, and you don't need a beach, or beach wheels, to launch it, you can toss it off the dock.

But as a sailboat, it makes a great bathtub!


Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Timbo] #255190
11/26/12 10:33 AM
11/26/12 10:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
regardless of the boat choice, what skills do the sailors need for the Olympic multihulls?

General sailing (any boat, mono or multi)
Buoy racing (any boat)
High-performance sailing (dingy, multi, skiff)
Multihull sailing (Formula multis)
Trapeeze work (skiff, multi)
Spinnaker work (skiff, multi)

so maybe picking the existing, bigger groups might help:

Basic sailing - Opti, Wave, O'pen
Course racing - 420, Wave, Dragoon, H-16, Formula multis, Skiffs
High-performace sailing - skiffs, Multis
Trapeeze sailing - 420, Skiff, Multis
Spinnaker sailing - Skiff, Multis (420 would be too slow)



Jay

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255191
11/26/12 10:35 AM
11/26/12 10:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
WAIT...just add a trap and a spinnaker to an Opti!

Damn, I wish I'd thought of that before I sold my kid's Opti!


Blade F16
#777
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Timbo] #255194
11/26/12 10:44 AM
11/26/12 10:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Timbo
WAIT...just add a trap and a spinnaker to an Opti!

Damn, I wish I'd thought of that before I sold my kid's Opti!


put foils on it and make a moth like creature.


Jake Kohl
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Jake] #255202
11/26/12 11:25 AM
11/26/12 11:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
[Linked Image]


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255203
11/26/12 11:48 AM
11/26/12 11:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Both spins and foils have been put on optis... I will leave the google searching to you.

I very much agree with the point Jay made above- a lot of the skills that lead to a successful mulithull sailor are by no means multihull specific.

In general, I think the US does a pretty good job at developing some of the more fundamental racing skills- starts, boathandling, fleet management, strategy, etc. It is in the transition to boatspeed-type boats where we seem to struggle. With that in mind, moving sailors through a jr. sailing to performance pathway is important.

I think there is a role for both local clubs, and regional training in this pathway. I see the local clubs focusing on younger sailors in optis or Bics, 420s, Lasers, and other "typical" jr. sailing boats. The focus of yacht club programs should be to develop the fundamentals, and more importantly plant a love of the sport in young sailors. I don't see the average yacht club program developing a i420/29er/F16 program if for no other reason than the boats are too expensive for a club-owned fleet... it's hard to get past that reality.

Where the next step can de handled is with regionalized high performance teams. Theses teams should focus on developing motivated young sailors along the path to olympic classes. The USDT is a great start, but the travel requirements still place a heavy financial burden on families. Having a Regional development team could increase the pool of Olympic class sailors, and reduce travel costs. I could see a New England team practicing in Newport, a Midwest team in Chicago, etc. Ensuring each regional team has excellent coaching is a must- and US Sailing should play a role here. It might even be possible to work with existing programs like Lisot or FAST to make this happen.

The top sailors from the regional teams then move on to the US Sailing Development Team, and then hopefully on to the US Sailing Team Sperry Topsider.... the more established the path the better.

As far as the olympic multihull is concerned, we need to do everything possible to make the multi an option for top young sailors, just like any other class. Right now, I don't see the top youth sailors in the country (opti national team members, youth champs winners, all americans, etc.) considering sailing multis- that needs to change.



USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Jake] #255204
11/26/12 11:55 AM
11/26/12 11:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted by Jake
[]

put foils on it and make a moth like creature.


I like the way you think!


Blade F16
#777
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #255206
11/26/12 12:03 PM
11/26/12 12:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Right now, I don't see the top youth sailors in the country (opti national team members, youth champs winners, all americans, etc.) considering sailing multis- that needs to change.



Jeff, I think the real rason you don't see top youth teams from traditional Yacht Club programs (Opti-Laser-420) considering a multihull is...

They've never been EXPOSED to a multihull. Most traditional YC's won't allow one in the yard, there's no place to park them and/or no beach launch them from. The Geezers that run the clubs don't want them.

I have 4 kids, I know from teaching them, and many of their friends to sail on my cats, the kids LOVE trapping out and going fast. I've had many kids out on the wire, who had sailed mono dinghys, who had no idea how fast a spinnaker cat could go. Once they got a taste, they wanted more, but try selling that to a traditional yacht club. The fist thing they will say is, "How much does it cost?" The second thing is, "Where will we put them?" And the third thing is, "Do you know how many Lasers we could buy for that much money!"


Blade F16
#777
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255208
11/26/12 12:16 PM
11/26/12 12:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Absolutely agree- so how do we fix it? My skipper/boat partner and I bought an F18 having never sailed cats before. We did it not because it was a cat, but because it is the best fleet of high performance boats in our area. My skipper comes from a 420-29er background, I come from a keelboat/laser background. We both sailed in college and still team race and sail small dinghies (I Frostbit an IC.... talk about slow!).

Having multihulls at the Youth Worlds Qualifier and at the US Sailing Youth Champs will help exposure.

In our fleet we make sure to attend multi-class regattas like Sail Newport and Hyannis to make sure we are a visible presence. We also try to take youth sailors out on our boats after racing. All local fleets should try to do the same.

The yacht club problem is a hard one to fix. There is not getting around the economics. That is why I think the development of skiff/multi sailors will be in a regional team atmosphere instead of "traditional" yacht clubs.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255209
11/26/12 12:23 PM
11/26/12 12:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
How to fix it? Young guys like you keep talkin' and doin' others will follow.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: pgp] #255211
11/26/12 12:50 PM
11/26/12 12:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Have the yacht club build a rack system in their boatyard. While not mast-up storage, you could pretty much leave the boat ready to step the mast (shrouds on, etc)

Then you could go three high, which is more boats/sf than dingys


Jay

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255212
11/26/12 12:56 PM
11/26/12 12:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
That's actually how the Royal Varuna Yacht Club in Thailand stored many of their boats, it was a great system.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: John Williams] #255213
11/26/12 12:57 PM
11/26/12 12:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by John Williams
[Linked Image]



HORY COW, HERP US, GODZIRRA!


Jay

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255221
11/26/12 04:06 PM
11/26/12 04:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Jeff,

You make a lot of valid points, but implementing them may be tough. As is often the case everyone gets hung up on specific classes and boats, rather than looking at the culture surrounding sailing in the U.S. I am fortunate to live in a hotbed of sailing (Annapolis area), am sitting 20 minutes away from one of the premier Olympic sailing training sites in the country (St. Marys College), and can still count the number of high performance boats in the area without a calculator (surprising since I'm not that great at math). Besides Mark's count of 6 i420's at AYC that I have yet to see (CBYRA still uses C420's during the summer regatta circuit), and the club A-Cat at West River, no yacht club owns what I would consider a moderate performance boat. Both West River and SSA are great supporters of existing fleets (SSA has a bunch of 505's, West River has ~ the largest F16 fleet in the country and one of the few N20 fleets left), but how do you transition that to Olympic results? All the clubs mentioned above support the Opti->Club 420->College program, with no pathway to high performance sailing (some summer with a trap wire and spinnaker in a C420 counts a little). AFAIK, only 1 yacht club in the country introduces ANY high performance sailing at the high school level, and we've seen the results of that program with a top 15 finish at F18 worlds.

How do we break the current cycle? Exposing more kids to fast boats at a young age is a great start, but exposing the parents is also critical. The reality is few have the means to own a quick boat and few still can make it work on the regional regatta circuit. Youth will need help period. Looking at my travel budget+insurance+running costs for next year is making me cringe, I guarantee it is north of 75% of the price of the boat. How do you sustain this at the Olympic level?? Training 3+ days a week, paying for private coaching on weekends and traveling thousands of miles to regattas makes this unsustainable for all but the 1%, or those like JC that beg, borrow and steal to make it happen (aka a lifestyle choice).

The unfortunate reality is the high performance multihull talent pool in my backyard is bigger than most yet still slim enough that traveling is a necessity of getting better. Bringing in a regional coach would be great but how do you pay for it? How do you convince the typical yacht club member to fork over a few bucks for a coach instead of drinking beer one night? This goes for any boat or Olympic campaign. We need grassroots answers to a problem created by the 1%, and unfortunately it may be too late for the 2016 Olympic cycle.

Last edited by samc99us; 11/26/12 04:07 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255226
11/26/12 09:38 PM
11/26/12 09:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Yep, implementing them is definitely tough. What we need is a cultural shift, and that doesn't happen overnight. Where I grew up on Lake Erie, the cool Jr. boat is the Thistle... a boat designed in 1945. One of the reasons the boat is popular is the strong open regatta circuit for the boat, and all the additional social aspects of adult regattas that are not available at jr. events. I know I'm working to get more older sailors to switch to HP boats, but I think it is a much harder sell than to young sailors. Unfortunately, there is a whole lot of inertia in the sailing world, and changing the course away from flying sidewalks is hard!

The price of a performance boat is high, but when you start looking at Olympic pathways, the cost of the boat becomes less significant when compared to campaign costs. That is why I really think we need to develop strong regional training teams. If we can keep travel to within a few hours most weekends, the pool of sailors willing to commit to that path increases.

How do you implement regional teams? You leverage some of the awesome programs and facilities already available, and I think US Sailing should fund regional high performance coaches. I think that would be something that could really make a difference to our sailing culture, and I would be happy to see some of my dues money go towards that. If not US Sailing funding, then maybe we need to work with regional yachting associations. For sure hiring a respected HP coach could be tough for an individual club or family, but if a group of clubs commits to hiring a coach for their combined top talent, it becomes more possible. It is a cultural shift, but possible.

Possible training centers:
New England: Sail Newport
South East: USSC Miami
South West: USSC Long Beach
North West: Sail Sand Point
Midwest: USSC Sheboygan, or maybe Chicago (or my hometown Cleveland!)
Gulf Coast: Somewhere in Texas maybe?

The infrastructure exists... now we need motivated and skilled HP coaches!



USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255237
11/27/12 09:31 AM
11/27/12 09:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Jeff,

I know I am much more inclined to travel under 4 hours each way on a weekend, mostly from a time standpoint but fuel costs aren't getting cheaper.

The other unfortunate reality is the existing USSC infrastructure that you listed excludes large swaths of the country. It is 1,000 miles to Miami from Annapolis and 400 miles to Newport (the later close to frozen now). There are sizable active fleets of HP boats in Georgia, SC, NC, MD and NJ that would have a tough time making it to regional coaching on a given weekend. Yes the top talent will find a way to make the drive but the U.S Sailing/yacht club members that are paying for the regional coaches might have a tough time justifying the expense if they too can't reap the benefit. I'm sure a similar thing can be said for other areas of the country. A related solution is to build community sailing centers that can operate outside the yacht club infrastructure and basically exist solely to support coaching sailors from never been on a boat to Olympic level (the later bringing USSC status and associated funding). These may be off the beaten path a little bit but bring new sailing venues and much lower membership fees than a typical yacht club infrastructure.

Another minor concern is the availability of high performance coaches, at least in the Florida area 3 out of 4 that I am aware of live on the Gulf Coast, quite a drive from Miami. I'm not sure other areas of the country even have 1 performance coach.

-Sam

Last edited by samc99us; 11/27/12 09:36 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255242
11/27/12 10:15 AM
11/27/12 10:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Sam,

I accidentally omitted a mid-atlantic venue- my apologies. I would love more community sailing centers around the country! In Boston, we are fortunate enough to have several... unfortunately the "high performance" boat at these centers are lasers and 420s (plus windsurfers at Community Boating Boston). For a community sailing center, a premium has to be put on boats that can sustain constant use (abuse) for an entire summer with minimal maintenance. If you have ever watched the MIT rec sailors and community boating sailors run boats into the esplanade, into the bridges, into each other... you'll know what I mean!

Unfortunately, for high performance boats, private ownership seems much more likely. The Canadian 49er class started a boat grant this year which is great- I have tried to figure out a way to do that for the F18s with little success. My hope is that if you make coaching and training more accessible and reduce the campaign burden, maybe more people would be willing to investment slightly more in the equipment up front.

As far as coach availability, if you create actual paid positions, I think you would see people move to those areas- it already happens for collegiate coaching positions. I am confident we have an adequate number of individuals who could coach performance boats in the US, but if not, I am not against hiring foreign coaches... it works for nations like Singapore!


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: samc99us] #255243
11/27/12 10:44 AM
11/27/12 10:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
You guys have done a good job of describing the hurdles.

I think you have to break things down to two divisions.

Olympic Pathway are the 5 to 6 mixed teams actively out raising money for their own campaigns, training with the team multi coach and making the ISAF grade I events as needed. They will need their home Yacht clubs to host Olympic training camps and a handful of international regattas. These guys will take care of themselves.

The real issue is how to get talent into the development team on mixed multihull. Growing your own.... ie coaching up your kids won't work... We need a program that
1) attracts the attention of the top junior racers 15 to 21.
2) provides an opportunity to compete for and participate in at least 2 regional training camps against the top regional racers in open multi... with a huge effort to recruit woman.
4) a mechanism to be invited to an elite training camp with members of the olympic team who are also training.
5) a clear domestic competition pathway to the ISAF youth champs and the later on... the Olympic team and Olympic ISAF events.

Leadership for the youth develpment MUST come from the top.... BUT the job is to get key regional clubs to support the Olympic development effort.. Figure out what resources are needed and then raise the money to make it happen.

This program sits on top of any yacht club programs that are using mulit's (eg Sarostoa YC or Hobie Div 11 and the JO's)

Individual parents will also be supporting their sailor with coaching and boats and they would be taking advantage of this kind of program as well.

Once this is in place... the racing multihull clubs can then piece in events locally that give these junior sailors more opportunity to race. Move boats, etc etc. If we can get these racers three experiences on a racing cat... they will be hooked.

My proposal is for a two boat trailers with F16's for charter that move from one regional high performance training camp to the next. Add two teams with their own boats and two teams trying it out from the local Yacht clubs and a olympic branded coach and you might get some good results. repeat this model a few times around the country and you might get something going.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255244
11/27/12 11:00 AM
11/27/12 11:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Whoa... That could be interesting. Two trailers of (presumably sponsored) boats... I hear Alter Cup solution as a bonus!!! smile

Lots of good ideas here, keep them coming.

BTW, there are far more good girl sailors than you are giving credit here. It shouldn't be too hard to find them.

I would argue that we need to focus on transitioning college sailors. Going after the youth probably won't work, as they are all focused on getting to college, where monohulls rule the water (if they have time to sail at all). Full-time Olympic paths really start after college anyway.

Mike

Re: US Olympic Pathway Solns.... thoughts? [Re: Mark Schneider] #255246
11/27/12 11:24 AM
11/27/12 11:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline
old hand
Bob_Curry  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Guys,

All these ideas are great! But, WHO is going to pay for it?

"My proposal is for a two boat trailers with F16's for charter that move from one regional high performance training camp to the next. Add two teams with their own boats and two teams trying it out from the local Yacht clubs and a olympic branded coach and you might get some good results. repeat this model a few times around the country and you might get something going."

This takes a LOT of MONEY and a lot of volunteer effort(money costs again!). This is the biggest hurdle and only the 1% have it. It helps to be a professional sailor too!

You are asking these kids to sacrifice their educations for what, a piece of metal that doesn't buy them groceries at the end of the day?! The days of glory are long gone.

I think someone else said it but 2016 is already past you. This is the reality whether you like it or not. I wish the current teams good luck!

BC


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 325 guests, and 277 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180, IrPaxx
8149 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,402
Posts267,053
Members8,149
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1