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Re: Sail Material [Re: waterbug_wpb] #257137
02/07/13 10:43 AM
02/07/13 10:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
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Just Sail Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Just Sail
All the same as in SMOD


is a box-rule F18 cheaper than a SMOD Wildcat?

I was under the impression that box-rule/formula class structure would allow for cheaper and more durable boats because of the flexibility of multiple manufacturers and materials?


The only reason I mention SMOD is that Franck was so insistent on all the boats being the same and no one manufacturer should build a faster product than the next.

My understanding of a box rule was that a set of guidelines were set. Different manufacturers would build boats that met the criteria set in the rules. If I am a new manufacturer I am going to try to build a faster boat than the others so I can claim a bigger market share for myself (make money, more sales)because of a faster better designed boat.

Apparently this is not in the "spirit" of the F18 class and some how and new manufacturer is suppose to survive by following what the others are doing and respecting the fact that they must not build anything that could be better even if it adheres to the rules. (no innovation allowed what so ever)

This sounds to me like SMOD (N20, Nacra 17, Laser, Sunfish)

Last edited by Just Sail; 02/07/13 10:44 AM.
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Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257139
02/07/13 11:01 AM
02/07/13 11:01 AM
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franck Offline
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The idea of F18 is not to have faster boat (180 kg is not very performing indeed). Faster boat have no interest in the game. The idea is to have very close boats.

A class or C class are box rules and are developpment series, always improving your boat to go faster is part of the game.

F18 genuine idea is not that.

F18 is a close class rules. What is not allowed is forbidden.
That is the F18 spirit. So twisting the rule is not right and contain evolution logical.

Due to the success of F18 and some hole in the original set of rules (height of hull, length of daggerboard) and some authorisation (carbon in daggerboard, without it you cannot have thin and 2 meters daggerboard), you have now 2 or 3 F18 fleet.
So a Tiger can no more win a national F18 Championship (last time in Spain in 2010). That is a warning.

And that bad move explain: C1, C2, C2 with longer daggerboard, Infusion , Infusion MK2, Wildcat with new set of sails and so on. This is a run that made your F18 obsolete.

Some details like moving from gel coat to paint to gain on structure weight or using very light sails (the subject of the topic) make a gain of performance.

It's easy to understand the wish of a faster boat. But having a faster F18 is not the target. That is less interesting than improving sailing skills.

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257140
02/07/13 11:21 AM
02/07/13 11:21 AM
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Just Sail Offline
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Just Sail  Offline
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To me these are the rules of the game. If you don't like this game play another game. The rules are there is black & white. No twisting at all. Just innovation, as allowed by the rules.

SMOD will solve all your concerns. Every boat a carbon copy of the next.

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257141
02/07/13 11:35 AM
02/07/13 11:35 AM
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Mamaloe Offline
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Knowing how much fun you can have on one of these modern F18's I would now dread having to go out and compete on one of the first versions of the F18 class.

Fact is, older models have always been obsolete to some extent depending on how much used the boat is, and how aged the model is. Equally important is that this has been a fairly gradual process, and there have always been new entrants interested in buying used cats of older design, helping build the class.

Likewise I am looking forward to the next changes in e.g. hull design which will make the F18 go even faster and which will make it even more spectacular. Likely though - given our class rules - this will be continue to be a fairly gradual process, spanning many years. The only thing that can stop this - no thanks - in this example is a new rule which forbids the introduction of new, faster hull designs.

Let there be progress.

Ad


Last edited by Mamaloe; 02/07/13 12:27 PM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257143
02/07/13 12:12 PM
02/07/13 12:12 PM
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franck Offline
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I'm sure that Carbon mast, foils and 150 kg boats are better, faster, more fun indeed, that is true progress.
But that is no more F18.

Since the start, F18 are low tech boat: no foil, no carbon mast, 180 kg -heavy-, no wing, that explain the success of the class.

F18 is closer to SMOD than A Class and C Class, the concept is to have very similar boat. Today most of the boat use 3 mil. thickness sails.



Last edited by franck; 02/07/13 12:14 PM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257145
02/07/13 12:23 PM
02/07/13 12:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
Just Sail Offline
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Franck

What you are suggesting can't happen in the F18 class because there are rules that we have to follow.

Design innovation within the rules is what makes the F18 a great class

The freedom to choose

http://vimeo.com/17595156




Last edited by Just Sail; 02/07/13 12:24 PM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: Just Sail] #257147
02/07/13 12:32 PM
02/07/13 12:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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but has the multiple manufacturer / limited materials formula made sailing more affordable than an unlimited or SMOD setup?

Are A-class sails (unlimited) or Hobie compliant Tiger sails (SMOD)more or less expensive than an F18 sail?


Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 02/07/13 12:33 PM.

Jay

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257153
02/07/13 02:30 PM
02/07/13 02:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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F-18 5150  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,430
california
Rumor is under the rules as currently submitted the Hobie Tiger and Wildcat sails would be illegal in blue or red as they are 2.5 contender. As well as the Nacra and AHPC colored sails. There is a good discussion going on on the international F-18 Facebook site too.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257156
02/07/13 02:56 PM
02/07/13 02:56 PM
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NacramanUK Offline
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Future 2.5mm sails would be illegal (if the new list is adopted)....existing measured 2.5mm sails would be legal...

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257157
02/07/13 03:00 PM
02/07/13 03:00 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Franck, please tell us what boat you sail? Obviously someone **** in your wheaties because they are using lighter, faster, more durable sails, have long boards and a wing mast section and are now beating you around the course.

There is no reason to limit the sail materials unless the intention is to reduce cost. That is CLEARLY not the case here, considering you are going to make illegal a number of existing sails. That is in the best interest of the manufacturers who sit on the technical committee!!!!

Making the boats more similar has nothing to do with it. The rules are designed to have flexibility for limited innovation. Otherwise everyone would still be sailing Hobie Tigers, and the F18 fleet in most of the U.S wouldn't be near as strong-the sail and rig innovations let F18's match or beat N20's that carry a carbon rig and more sail area.

Finally, someone can go out, pick up a used Tiger for $5K USD, stick a set of $3K long boards and high aspect rudders on the boat, put a nice new set of 2012 sails on and for less than $10K still have a very competitive F18. No it won't win championships because the people winning Nationals and World's are all pro's sailing the latest and greatest designs. Do you spend 300+ days a year on the water with coaching??? If not the platform doesn't matter and this fleet separation you are talking about is mostly a skill set issue.


Scorpion F18
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257158
02/07/13 03:05 PM
02/07/13 03:05 PM
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Posts: 98
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NacramanUK Offline
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Posts: 98
I have just spoken to Peter Vink (Performance Sails) and all smoke and white Nacra Infusion sails have ALWAYS been made with 3mm cloth. There have been a very few 2.5mm sets in dark blue (they are no longer an available option), but these would remain legal as they are already measured under old cloth list specification.

Re: Sail Material [Re: samc99us] #257160
02/07/13 03:08 PM
02/07/13 03:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Franck, please tell us what boat you sail? Obviously someone **** in your wheaties because they are using lighter, faster, more durable sails, have long boards and a wing mast section and are now beating you around the course.

There is no reason to limit the sail materials unless the intention is to reduce cost. That is CLEARLY not the case here, considering you are going to make illegal a number of existing sails. That is in the best interest of the manufacturers who sit on the technical committee!!!!

Making the boats more similar has nothing to do with it. The rules are designed to have flexibility for limited innovation. Otherwise everyone would still be sailing Hobie Tigers, and the F18 fleet in most of the U.S wouldn't be near as strong-the sail and rig innovations let F18's match or beat N20's that carry a carbon rig and more sail area.

Finally, someone can go out, pick up a used Tiger for $5K USD, stick a set of $3K long boards and high aspect rudders on the boat, put a nice new set of 2012 sails on and for less than $10K still have a very competitive F18. No it won't win championships because the people winning Nationals and World's are all pro's sailing the latest and greatest designs. Do you spend 300+ days a year on the water with coaching??? If not the platform doesn't matter and this fleet separation you are talking about is mostly a skill set issue.


Well said!


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Re: Sail Material [Re: NacramanUK] #257161
02/07/13 03:12 PM
02/07/13 03:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Originally Posted by NacramanUK
I have just spoken to Peter Vink (Performance Sails) and all smoke and white Nacra Infusion sails have ALWAYS been made with 3mm cloth. There have been a very few 2.5mm sets in dark blue (they are no longer an available option), but these would remain legal as they are already measured under old cloth list specification.


Those sails will only be legal if they have been measured, but there are a lot of this type of sail that is out there on boats and if they are not currently measured then they are now useless for class racing if this idiotic rule change goes ahead. Same goes for all the coloured sails from Hobie and the lighter 2.5mil ones that AHPC have made recently.


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Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257165
02/07/13 03:34 PM
02/07/13 03:34 PM
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NacramanUK Offline
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Posts: 98
Agreed they will only be legal if they are measured, but given that it is more than 16 months since the last dark blue Infusion sails were sold (they were sold in the UK and are they are the only set here-they are measured!) and that even at club level the NOR requires a boat to be measured it is unlikely that any of these few dark blue Infusion sails will be unmeasured. Please let us know if you are aware of any that are not measured.

Last edited by NacramanUK; 02/07/13 03:38 PM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257166
02/07/13 03:40 PM
02/07/13 03:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Personally, I like the variation in designs in the F18 fleet. Some designs fit various crew weights/sailing styles better than others, and this is a good thing! Variation in designs and sails allows a wider range of sailors to find a setup that works for them, narrowing the gaps in the fleet, not increasing it.

My question is what is the submission and voting process for the proposed change in material list? I haven't seen anything from the international class.

I also feel like we need to stop fighting over things like the cloth list and focus on sailing. The fact that no US team that I have talked to can find a charter boat for the 2013 worlds is in my opinion much more important!


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257167
02/07/13 03:41 PM
02/07/13 03:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Carl, You haven't experienced the rush to get things measured just prior to a big event, but I can assure you that there is always a lot of gear out there being used regularly that is not measured until a big event like a nationals or worlds. If you have a boat in Italy and the worlds are going to be there like this year then you have a better chance of getting yourself there, maybe you have a 2009 wildcat, sail at your local club and want to take the opportunity to do a worlds. Well now you cant.... Your red sails are illegal and thats all thanks to some stupid rule change.
Lets make sure this does not happen!!


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Re: Sail Material [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #257169
02/07/13 03:43 PM
02/07/13 03:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Personally, I like the variation in designs in the F18 fleet. Some designs fit various crew weights/sailing styles better than others, and this is a good thing! Variation in designs and sails allows a wider range of sailors to find a setup that works for them, narrowing the gaps in the fleet, not increasing it.

My question is what is the submission and voting process for the proposed change in material list? I haven't seen anything from the international class.

I also feel like we need to stop fighting over things like the cloth list and focus on sailing. The fact that no US team that I have talked to can find a charter boat for the 2013 worlds is in my opinion much more important!


Jeff, You are exactly right! Its the ability to choose that makes this class great.

The way that the proposal has come about is the subject of great discussion at the moment, It certainly was not requested by the world council. The minutes from the meeting do not show any request for a new cloth list. They actually show a vote was taken and the 2010 cloth list was retained.

If you are looking for a charter boat perhaps I can fire a few mails around and see what i can find. Ill let you know.

Last edited by macca; 02/07/13 03:46 PM.

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Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257171
02/07/13 03:50 PM
02/07/13 03:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by F-18 5150
There is a good discussion going on on the international F-18 Facebook site too.


Facebook is for queers


Jay

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257175
02/07/13 04:11 PM
02/07/13 04:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
N
NacramanUK Offline
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NacramanUK  Offline
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Posts: 98
Macca, I think we have to agree to disagree about the unmeasured sails issue.
With regards my experience of the hussle and bussle of getting sails and boat ready, measured and legal prior to big events, I do have experience (all be it a very long time ago!). Clearly if you strongly believe that the1.5mm cloth is as durable as the 3mm cloth, gives no performance advantage and is actually cheaper you should really encourage Alex to join the F18 association and take up the invites to become part of the technical committee that have been offered to him and argue SI's sail cloth position there.

Last edited by NacramanUK; 02/07/13 04:23 PM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257176
02/07/13 04:25 PM
02/07/13 04:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
Carl,

Alex or myself have never been offered to join the technical committee, It would make it more difficult for the existing cartel to contuct their business if that happened...

I do believe that 1.5mil is a better cloth, and its perfectly durable and the owners of these sails will all say so. What I have a massive issue with is that there is a rule change that is proposed by the class secretary without any authourisation or request by the world council. Plus we have a technical committee that are attempting to force us to use cloth that suits them and not the class members. Its totally nuts to have the proposed list, take a look at what they are proposing:-

Dimension Polyant PE05, 3.0mil Pentex is NOT AVAILABLE, you can however request a special run of 1000m, costing around 20,000 Euro, enough to make around 50 mainsails which is more than any small loft will do in a year and a serious impact on a small lofts cashflow.

Challenge MPX06, 3.0mil Pentex is NOT AVAILABLE, I have spoken to the local distributor and it is not stocked anymore in Europe and is a special order in the USA.

Pryde F18 X Ply, 3.0mil Polyester, I have no idea where to order this, what the specifications are or what it even looks like. I certainly can't find a distributor in Europe to order from so I assume I have to order from the factory and pay the shipping for small quantities which will dramatically increase the cost.

Contender Apen 06 3.0mil Pentex, You can order this from your local distributor.


So, out of a list of 4 possible cloths proposed by the Technical committee, we find that its only possible to obtain one of these unless you front up with 20k Euro to order a special run from Dimension Polyant.

Great work hey!!


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