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Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257179
02/07/13 04:53 PM
02/07/13 04:53 PM
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NacramanUK Offline
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Hi Macca,

I do have a copy of an email from Dimension-Polyant categorically stating that they are able to supply PEO5 3mil for all of 2013 in all world markets. I will post an excerpt from the email once I have permission. I will also check on the details on exact availability of supply of the Challenge and Pryde cloths which as far as I have been informed will be available to all sailmakers around the world. I probably won't respond until Saturday as it is my birthday tomorrow and I intend to get thoroughly inebriated all day tomorrow (Friday) so goodnight till then!!!

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257181
02/07/13 05:11 PM
02/07/13 05:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Australia
macca Offline
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Carl,
That's awesome that you have an email like that, but I spoke to DP today in their head office in germany and was told by the sales manager that its 1000m at a time or not at all. If I call my DP distributor as a sailmaker and am told that, then I dont order the stuff. Its not a stock item anymore, why are we as a class trying to use sail cloth that is a special order??? What the hell is wrong with the cloth we can order from our distributors?

Same for Challenge, I spoke to the UK distributor today, he has none in stock and will not sell anything less than an entire roll of the cloth. Its a special order from the factory in the USA. This is not conforming with the stated objectives of the class to have all cloth widely available!!! Its so unavailable that its on special order in large quantities only....

Please let me know which distributor in continental Europe I can purchase the Pryde cloth from. If I have to order from china it will make the cloth more expensive than 3Di by the time it gets to me... again, this in not in line with the widely available objective!

have a look at the DP catalogue, there is no mention of PE 05 3.0mil, its not there!! But you can order a full range of PE cloth in 1.5mil straight out of the book.

Stop trying to defend an indefensible action by the Tech committee, they are plain wrong in this case (as a few previous cases too...)

Enjoy your birthday.


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Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257184
02/07/13 05:44 PM
02/07/13 05:44 PM
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NacramanUK Offline
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Have a chat with Ben Rogers at DP about your cloth requirements....many thanks for your birthday wishes...speak again on Saturday.

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257185
02/07/13 05:57 PM
02/07/13 05:57 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Carl,
I spoke with Uwe (last name i cant spell or pronounce) at DP head office in germany, he tells me clearly that its not a stock item and must be ordered in 1000m lots. I know that i can scam some from my mate Jay at DP Sydney, but thats because he has some there from a special order for AHPC. However, I will need to get it delivered to the loft and hence the cost will be massive compared to sourcing it locally. All this is again:- outside the stated objective of widely available.

It has been removed from the 2013 brochure, its not a stock item anymore.

perhaps we should look at the reasons why the cloth manufactures are stopping production of this type of cloth!

Maybe we as a class need to realise that the sail cloth industry is moving forward and we are going backwards... Does anyone here want to sail their F18 with Dacron sails? If some people had their way then we would be going that way...



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Re: Sail Material [Re: samc99us] #257192
02/08/13 02:21 AM
02/08/13 02:21 AM
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franck Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Franck, please tell us what boat you sail? Obviously someone **** in your wheaties because they are using lighter, faster, more durable sails, have long boards and a wing mast section and are now beating you around the course.

There is no reason to limit the sail materials unless the intention is to reduce cost. That is CLEARLY not the case here, considering you are going to make illegal a number of existing sails. That is in the best interest of the manufacturers who sit on the technical committee!!!!

Making the boats more similar has nothing to do with it. The rules are designed to have flexibility for limited innovation. Otherwise everyone would still be sailing Hobie Tigers, and the F18 fleet in most of the U.S wouldn't be near as strong-the sail and rig innovations let F18's match or beat N20's that carry a carbon rig and more sail area.

Finally, someone can go out, pick up a used Tiger for $5K USD, stick a set of $3K long boards and high aspect rudders on the boat, put a nice new set of 2012 sails on and for less than $10K still have a very competitive F18. No it won't win championships because the people winning Nationals and World's are all pro's sailing the latest and greatest designs. Do you spend 300+ days a year on the water with coaching??? If not the platform doesn't matter and this fleet separation you are talking about is mostly a skill set issue.


Sam,

Come in France and will see how you're in the fleet ;-) Last world show old F18 countries are still ahead cool

There is reasons to limit the sail material just think about F18 spirit.

Once again F18 is not capitalisme stuff, for your info it has been created in a sovietic country by an governement agency. The french MNA (Fédération Française de Voile) budget is over than 30% paid by the french government. That help you to understand the way that permit F18 success. Sport more important than technics developpment.


If you need a faster boat to be ahead, you miss the F18 point. Try A class or C class or AC72, there tech dev is part of the game.

F18 should be as similar as possible in order to improve sailing skill.
Unhappily some are not good enough (lazy on training smile ) on the water and need longer daggerboard, big hull, painted hull (to have stiffer platform) and lighter sail to replace sailing skill. That is not very interesting indeed.

And the customer pay the developpment done by the pusher.
So now you can understand better than limiting material is the genuine spirit of F18 and that is a way to limit cost and have better sport.

Here the item is on process for the member and anyone can think what he wants.

Sales representatives words are not very reliable, just keep in mind how they change about paint, first it was economic and one year after admit it was to replace gel coat dead weight.

Obviously thin sails are lighter and are performance bonus. I ask to prove that 1,5 mil offer the same characteristics (UV, mechanic, abrasion) than 3 mil. for durability, I wait and smile.


Last edited by franck; 02/08/13 03:31 AM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: franck] #257193
02/08/13 03:10 AM
02/08/13 03:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Aido  Offline
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Brisveagas
Franck,

Quite clearly the f18 sail material is already heavily Limited.

No Aramids
No Carbon
No String
N0 3dl
No cuben
No 3di
No 2 plys
Nothing thats not on the already limited list.

You are clearly pushing the agenda of the big manufacturers. Please stop it. Its getting very old.

F18 is and has always been a development class. That is a fact.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257194
02/08/13 03:29 AM
02/08/13 03:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
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franck Offline
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Aido,

Viper is a very good boat and you understand what I mean by close boat. But no I'm not working for big manufacturer, neither for small ones.
My business is very far from sailing.

Read again my argumentation and you can make your opinion and may be vote.

You noticed that "clearly the f18 sail material is already heavily Limited." so F18 obviously, cannot be a development class.

A class or C Class are developpment class.
It's easy to see the difference, even the name express the path of F18: it is not "18 class" but Formula 18.

Re: Sail Material [Re: franck] #257200
02/08/13 04:37 AM
02/08/13 04:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Aido  Offline
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Brisveagas
No you have it wrong. The fact that some materials are limited does not change the fact that is a development class. Its a Box rule just like the C and the A.

God Damn it whats next?? Unbelievable.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257201
02/08/13 04:44 AM
02/08/13 04:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Stay calm Aido...

maybe you need to come back to NED so you can chill... smile



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Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257202
02/08/13 05:13 AM
02/08/13 05:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
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franck Offline
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Yep everybody stay calm and just read.
The most important to understand F18 is the restriction of the second paragraph of the rules guiding principles.
Such second paragraph does not exist in A class or C class which are development class. F18 is a restriction class.
I hope you get it now.

FORMULA 18 CLASS RULES GUIDING PRINCIPLES:

The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance. Being open to any manufacturer allows many builders and sail makers to compete and so keep costs to a minimum.

The Class remains aware to keeping development under control, maintaining a good balance between cost and performance. Corrected crew weights allows fairer racing with more ladies involved as helms and crews.

If that is not crystal clear enough (OB for ever cool), just read that:

PART II – REQUIREMENTS AND LIMIT A TIONS

The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class. The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing. In case of conflict Section C shall prevail.
The rules in Part II are closed class rules where anything not specifically permitted by the Class rules is prohibited.


Developpment under hard control indeed

Last edited by franck; 02/08/13 05:19 AM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257203
02/08/13 05:20 AM
02/08/13 05:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
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Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Aido  Offline
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Brisveagas
Excuse me franck, are you blind, or cant you read the very first sentence?

The one that says:

The BOX RULE allows manufacturers to DEVELOP catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing FREEDOM to builders to DEVELOP HIGHER LEVELS of PERFORMANCE.

I'd say that is a pretty fair bet that having the word develop twice in the first sentence means that is a development class.

I hope you get it now.

Last edited by Aido; 02/08/13 05:37 AM.

Aido
Viper 288
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257204
02/08/13 05:46 AM
02/08/13 05:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
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franck Offline
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By the way I copy to you this first sentence.

But as everybody can read this first sentence is not the only one.

The first sentence introduce only the economic aspect:

Being open to any manufacturer allows many builders and sail makers to compete and so keep costs to a minimum.

Then, as I already write the most important is the limitation:

The Class remains aware to keeping development under control, maintaining a good balance between cost and performance. Corrected crew weights allows fairer racing with more ladies involved as helms and crews.

Nobody can ignore it now. That is the main difference between development class and Formula. smile
One time more (in red this time), the intentions of the class rules:

PART II – REQUIREMENTS AND LIMITATIONS

The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class. The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing. In case of conflict Section C shall prevail.
The rules in Part II are closed class rules where anything not specifically permitted by the Class rules is prohibited.

A Olivier like to say: it is crystal clear cool

Last edited by franck; 02/08/13 05:48 AM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257205
02/08/13 05:57 AM
02/08/13 05:57 AM
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macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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The Sailcoth list has been in place for a number of years now, it is not a new development. We are all working inside the rules and the rules control the development.

What is being attempted here by the Tech Committee and the secretary of the class is the make a change to the existing rules in order to prevent one of their rivals continuing to sell class legal sails.

Once again:- this is not a development issue. It is a commercially motivated attack on a sailmaker.



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Re: Sail Material [Re: macca] #257206
02/08/13 06:19 AM
02/08/13 06:19 AM
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Aido Offline
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Aido  Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
The Sailcoth list has been in place for a number of years now, it is not a new development. We are all working inside the rules and the rules control the development.

What is being attempted here by the Tech Committee and the secretary of the class is the make a change to the existing rules in order to prevent one of their rivals continuing to sell class legal sails.

Once again:- this is not a development issue. It is a commercially motivated attack on a sailmaker.


I agree its not a development issue. I was merely pointing out that a DEVELOPMENT CLASS (first sentence Franck, read it) such as the F18 does not require any more restrictions on sail cloth.

In My opinion it needs the opposite. It needs a proper structure put in place so when the next generation of economical, performance sailcloths come a long that there is a proper pathway to get them introduced.

We have had a case where a cloth has been added to the list at the whim of a boat manufacturer. And now a whole bunch of previously class legal cloths are going to be removed for no reason. Its an absolute shambles. Ill tell you straight up that no one will be able to tell the difference between 3 mil and 2.5 mil film by looking at it. The new list will just cause even more problems and even greater opportunity to cheat.

Last edited by Aido; 02/08/13 06:21 AM.

Aido
Viper 288
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257207
02/08/13 06:23 AM
02/08/13 06:23 AM
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macca Offline
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Exactly!! There is nothing good to come out of this newly proposed list.

Plus, you are pointing out that there should be a process for adding new cloth, well thats exactly what the world council asked the technical committee to do!! But they took that as a green light to try and get their new list approved....

The class needs to move forward with new cloth as it develops, we are all aware that Pentex fiber cloth is getting more expensive and the manufacturers are replacing it with more durable and economical solutions, yet the muppets in the tech com are trying to force us to keep using the old and expensive stuff... not what they are meant to be doing!



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Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257215
02/08/13 11:42 AM
02/08/13 11:42 AM
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franck Offline
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Only -35% drop in 2012 for new F18, keep going on Andrew ! Development will kill F18 as popular sailing, like windsurf or Tornado. By the way do you know the thickness of the " revival" Tornado one design ? Check that it is funny. ( it is not 1,5 mil. ;-))
Sailing skills more is important than technic trick. That is the fun way. Loosing that is sad.

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257216
02/08/13 11:53 AM
02/08/13 11:53 AM
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Posts: 1,021
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macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Is there some function in the forum to ignore someone?


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Re: Sail Material [Re: macca] #257217
02/08/13 12:10 PM
02/08/13 12:10 PM
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Just Sail Offline
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Just Sail  Offline
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Posts: 32
Originally Posted by macca
Is there some function in the forum to ignore someone?


Yes there is click on there name to view their profile then click on "Ignore this user"

Last edited by Just Sail; 02/08/13 12:10 PM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257219
02/08/13 12:18 PM
02/08/13 12:18 PM
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macca Offline
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perfect! Thanks


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Re: Sail Material [Re: macca] #257220
02/08/13 12:20 PM
02/08/13 12:20 PM
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Jay Glaser Offline
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Hi,
My name is Jay Glaser and I am a member of the F18 TechCom so I must be a muppet. Thanks for that Macca.

This post is my opinion not that of the class.

I sail an blue Infusion with my wife Pease. (see us on the cover of Helge Sach's new cat book) Before that we sailed a Capricorn. Before that a Tcat.
I also have a really cool Guck A4 which I don't sail nearly enough.
I have been built a few (1000) catamaran sails in the past 40yrs (in 1973 sails from the loft where I was working won the Toronto Tornado Worlds). I guess this means I am really old.
I currently own an extremely small loft in SoCal and am not connected to any of the big boat builders.
I have spent some time out sailing around as well as crawling around a loft floor.

Here is my opinion.

The cloth list came from developments in the Tornado class for the 2004 Athens Games. Some of the teams came up with a cloth that was within the rule but was perceived to be expensive and fragile (Cuben Fiber). Other teams with a lot of resources had special cloth manufactured exclusively for their use (2Xply Pen).
Both of these situations were thought to be bad for the continuing health of the class so along with the F18 class the cloth list was born by asking the main sailmakers in the classes what they were mostly using.
The list has worked pretty much as hoped with cloths added as things changed. I think that the class members don't feel that anyone can get an advantage from using a special "unobtainium" cloth.
Over a year ago the was some discussion about the list and the need to update it. Some of the cloths on the list are no longer in production and there were other cloths that both cloth and sail manufacturers thought should be added.
There was also input from class measurers who that the list was too large.
Last year I started asking the main cloth manufacturers about the current and future availability of cloths on the list.
Armed with that information a decision to par down the cloth list was made.
There are plenty of arguments out there about what does and doesn't work but I made my own decision (3mil PE only for M&J 3/4 nylon for spi) based on what I thought the teams pushing off the beach trying to get into the top half of silver fleet might want not the guys going for a WC podium spot. Talking to those guys I think they enjoy the steady development in the class. Great to have self tacking jibs, spinnaker launchers, better hull designs, modern fat head mains etc but I think you would see a decline in numbers if they felt they needed to buy a new set of sails every year because they thought theirs were blown out or not out of the cool new thing. They can still get class legal sails from any loft designed for their weight and sailing conditions. The lofts can get cloth from at least 4 different manufacturers. The market is still free but by operating in a more narrow confine hopefully the perception is the sailor makes the difference and not so much the sails or the boat. We also avoid the pitfalls of the Builders classes where sailors buy lots of "identical" product looking for a small advantage.

And it is all about perception because going back to the beginning the Cuben sails were not fragile or more expensive but that idea was promoted by the teams that had it to achieve a small psych advantage. The "unobtainium" factor.

The tech com is working on a defined path for getting new cloth on the list but it is not as easy as it sounds. As the class grows there are increasing commercial pressures we need to take into account as well as responsibility to the current owners who have invested in the class.

I would like to thank Olivier Bovyn and Don Findlay for their continued hard work on behalf of the class. Without them (and many unnamed others) we would not have the chance to sail in great places with such large numbers of our friends. We need to remember those who built the sandbox we all have so much fun playing in.
Sorry about the long post.
Jay Glaser


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