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Is the F18 Development Class or not? #257267
02/11/13 08:41 AM
02/11/13 08:41 AM
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Just Sail Offline OP
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In light of the issues raised in 2 threads in particular I have started this topic in hopes of finding out how individuals feel about the development with in the rules of the class.

Is the F18 catamaran intended as a development class ?
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 02/11/13 08:38 AM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
Last edited by Just Sail; 02/11/13 08:42 AM.
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Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257277
02/11/13 09:38 AM
02/11/13 09:38 AM
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franck Offline
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The answer is in the F18 class rules. Oooops, it doesn't sound like a development class indeed.

"PART II – REQUIREMENTS AND LIMITATIONS
The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance
as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class. The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing. In case of conflict Section C shall prevail.
The rules in Part II are closed class rules where anything not specifically permitted by the Class rules is prohibited. Certification control and equipment inspection shall be carried out in accordance with the ERS except where varied in this Part.


Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257278
02/11/13 09:50 AM
02/11/13 09:50 AM
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Karl Funk Offline
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Classic false dichotomy.

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257279
02/11/13 10:10 AM
02/11/13 10:10 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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By Franck's reasoning i should be able to have a 6 year old child design an F18, get a group of semi trained monkeys to build it and put on some sails made by a total muppet and then have the class make rules to ensure that the rest of the fleet slows down to the pathetic speed of my mutant shitter contraption. All in the name of fairness....

dragging the fleet backwards to the lowest common denominator is not what the class is about and not what anyone with a brain wants.

I am betting that Franck voted for François Hollande and he is loving the backwards approach his President is taking to running his country too...


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Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257281
02/11/13 10:40 AM
02/11/13 10:40 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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FORMULA 18 CLASS RULES GUIDING PRINCIPLES:

The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance. Being open to any manufacturer allows many builders and sail makers to compete and so keep costs to a minimum.

The Class remains aware to keeping development under control, maintaining a good balance between cost and performance. Corrected crew weights allows fairer racing with more ladies involved as helms and crews.


Scorpion F18
Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: macca] #257284
02/11/13 10:49 AM
02/11/13 10:49 AM
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by macca
mutant shitter contraption.

dragging the fleet backwards to the lowest common denominator is not what the class is about and not what anyone with a brain wants.



(1) I think I just found my next boat name smile

(2) Lowest common denominator seems to be the rule in US public edumakashon, so if it works there....

(and yes, I'm being EXTREMELY sarcastic on point #2)


Jay

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257291
02/11/13 11:33 AM
02/11/13 11:33 AM
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Just Sail Offline OP
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"No, the intent is to have the boats all the same speed with no speed advantage to newer designs"

If this statement were true why would anyone design new product? How is any innovation going to take place? We would be frozen in time.

Why do the top sailors sail new boats?

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257302
02/11/13 01:18 PM
02/11/13 01:18 PM
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samc99us Offline
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Exactly, maybe now you get it??? This is a development class, otherwise people wouldn't DEVELOP new boats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Scorpion F18
Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257315
02/11/13 03:32 PM
02/11/13 03:32 PM
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california
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If it wasn't a development class then it would be a 18ft Tornado class.


Richard Vilvens
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Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: macca] #257322
02/11/13 04:56 PM
02/11/13 04:56 PM
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Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
Originally Posted by macca
By Franck's reasoning i should be able to have a 6 year old child design an F18, get a group of semi trained monkeys to build it and put on some sails made by a total muppet and then have the class make rules to ensure that the rest of the fleet slows down to the pathetic speed of my mutant shitter contraption. All in the name of fairness....

dragging the fleet backwards to the lowest common denominator is not what the class is about and not what anyone with a brain wants.

I am betting that Franck voted for François Hollande and he is loving the backwards approach his President is taking to running his country too...


Ha ha ha, pure gold.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Aido] #257328
02/11/13 06:09 PM
02/11/13 06:09 PM
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franck Offline
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Originally Posted by Aido
Originally Posted by macca
By Franck's reasoning i should be able to have a 6 year old child design an F18, get a group of semi trained monkeys to build it and put on some sails made by a total muppet and then have the class make rules to ensure that the rest of the fleet slows down to the pathetic speed of my mutant shitter contraption. All in the name of fairness....

dragging the fleet backwards to the lowest common denominator is not what the class is about and not what anyone with a brain wants.

I am betting that Franck voted for François Hollande and he is loving the backwards approach his President is taking to running his country too...


Ha ha ha, pure gold.



Pure gold easier than prove 1,5 mil is more reliable than 3 mil sails.
Andrew cannot answer so try to laugh, that is more pathetic than an very old F18 speed.

Indeed I just read the class rules that answer the question, you can choose to ignore that:

The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class.

Andrew ask me so kindly for reasonning.

First step is sport one: almost-champion need a bonus to be in front of the fleet.
That is not the F18 genuine spirit.
May be Andrew is better technician than sailor, no shame, not everybody can be a true champion.
By the way, I'm huge fan of Billy Besson and Jérémy Lagarrigue.
They're good on the water and now have a very serious technical project in a real high tech developpment class: C Class catamaran for the little America cup. High sailor skills means high technical challenge.
F18 are 180 kg. low tech boat that made the success of the class till now.

Because second step is money one. Never forget that the final customer and ordinary sailors paid for the boat and top gun developpment. F18 are here considered like smartphone.
Builders need to be in front by (respectable) business consideration.
I would better appreciate that very good technician put the money to built long last F18 and spent less money on developpment which is not the target of the class.

There I'm closer to german economics policy (and cars) than french one.














Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: franck] #257332
02/11/13 07:27 PM
02/11/13 07:27 PM
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Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Ok hows this for proof.

From the Contender sailcloth catalougue. APEN 06 3 mil is the only laminate in their whole range to have such a high film to fibre ratio. in fact the only cloth to have a 3 mil film at all. This includes all of their high performance fabrics including kevlar and carbon.

1.5 mil is pretty much the standard film thickness across their range, and is good enough for massive yachts why does the f18 class believe that it needs to be special and require the cloth strength to come from the plastic film. It makes no sense. Some of the information i have seen come out is from people that:

(a) Dont have a full grasp on what they are talking about
(b) Just plain telling untruths because it suits their own personal adgenda.

Im a fan of Contender products but sometimes their products are hard to get. If the new list goes through, being from Australia if my local contender supplier runs out of 3mil apen, I'm screwed. I have no other options.

Sorry for the bit of a thread highjack.

No doubt the f18 is a development class. The rule cherry picking has to stop.

Obviously the major manufacturers have been caught with their pants down by Sail Innovation. Maybe they should lift their game a bit instead of trying to move the goal posts.

Last edited by Aido; 02/11/13 08:10 PM.

Aido
Viper 288
Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: franck] #257335
02/12/13 06:09 AM
02/12/13 06:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Originally Posted by franck

There I'm closer to german economics policy (and cars) than french one.


I'm not sure if german economics is a role model for anything, but german cars are only that successful because they are refined with every new model.


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Aido] #257351
02/12/13 12:04 PM
02/12/13 12:04 PM
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franck Offline
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Originally Posted by Aido
Ok hows this for proof.

From the Contender sailcloth catalougue. APEN 06 3 mil is the only laminate in their whole range to have such a high film to fibre ratio. in fact the only cloth to have a 3 mil film at all. This includes all of their high performance fabrics including kevlar and carbon.

1.5 mil is pretty much the standard film thickness across their range, and is good enough for massive yachts why does the f18 class believe that it needs to be special and require the cloth strength to come from the plastic film. It makes no sense. Some of the information i have seen come out is from people that:

(a) Dont have a full grasp on what they are talking about
(b) Just plain telling untruths because it suits their own personal adgenda.

Im a fan of Contender products but sometimes their products are hard to get. If the new list goes through, being from Australia if my local contender supplier runs out of 3mil apen, I'm screwed. I have no other options.

Sorry for the bit of a thread highjack.

No doubt the f18 is a development class. The rule cherry picking has to stop.

Obviously the major manufacturers have been caught with their pants down by Sail Innovation. Maybe they should lift their game a bit instead of trying to move the goal posts.


"no doubt F18 is a developpment class" will be ok but then do not be shy: 130 kg (why 180 kg, "rule cherry picking " ? it is far too heavy on the beach), carbon mast -that has existed it was F18 high tech and it is a dead cold body-, foils of course, but not as simple as the one on Nacra 17, I like the GC32 or ETNZ system, winglet in order to fly longer and wings to look like AC72 will be the finale touch.
Nowadays who can imagine sailing with soft sails ?
Be a real developpment class, that would be great, isn't it ? ;-)

More seriously, just have a look on Tornado 2013 news.
After their class suicide by developpment, Tornado people try a revival, it is interesting to notice the argumentation.
All Tornado star I met tell me one thing: be aware to protect F18 spirit and success, do not accept sick class rules readers. There is no sailing and ordinary sailors interests there.

You may ask if they use 1,5 mil or 3 mil cool :

Tornado One Design Sails - Key Facts

One Design sails will become class legal as of 1st April 2013.

The class rules will include both sails and battens.
Advantages

The advantages of One Design sails are:

No advantage for professionals who have their own sail designs. All sailors have the same sail material to win races

No more expensive sail develop programs
Prices are locked for four years
No more extreme sails designs for light or heavy wind locations
Better quality of Sails, longer lasting sailcloth
Proven all round Sail Designs (from World and Olympic Champions)
Knowledge transfer between the sailors of all levels. The top-secrets are over, able to supply a standard tuning guide on the website
Faster sail measurement at championships

http://tornado-class.org/onedesign/onedesign.htm

May be Tornado people are in advance and their experiences explain they are wise.



Last edited by franck; 02/12/13 12:24 PM.
Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257354
02/12/13 12:22 PM
02/12/13 12:22 PM
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Just Sail Offline OP
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One design sails usually end up being very expensive and of poor quality...just look at the Laser...same outdated poor quality sail for a very high price and if you want to play the game you pay for it (even though you know you are getting ripped off).

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257355
02/12/13 12:34 PM
02/12/13 12:34 PM
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Australia
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Aside from the fact that One Design goes directly against the F18 guiding principals: "The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance"

There is the insanely funny part that the Tornado class One Design sail spec as per Ullman sails website shows that they chose 1.5mil laminate to ensure long lasting sails!!! Tornado One Design Sails



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Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: macca] #257359
02/12/13 01:07 PM
02/12/13 01:07 PM
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franck Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
Aside from the fact that One Design goes directly against the F18 guiding principals: "The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance"

There is the insanely funny part that the Tornado class One Design sail spec as per Ullman sails website shows that they chose 1.5mil laminate to ensure long lasting sails!!! Tornado One Design Sails



Andrew, dear sails dealer, you forget to notice the sentences which followed, it's sad, you loose something:

Being open to any manufacturer allows many builders and sail makers to compete and so keep costs to a minimum.
The Class remains aware to keeping development under control, maintaining a good balance between cost and performance.


and also, so sorry to repeat, but it seems some do not understand that he balance isn't in favor of developpment in F18 cass rules:

The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class

The rules in Part II are closed class rules where anything not specifically permitted by the Class rules is prohibited.


Indeed, you're right Andrew, F18 is not yet ready for OD sails, more ready now for carbon mast.

I point out the Tornado OD sails 4 days ago, difficulties to find the U website ? wink
For a so good technician like you it is a surprise.
That is one more proof that the mix of business and ordinary sailors interest isn't easy, even for Tornado people.
So it is a lesson that everyone can understand. Thank you to point it out.


It is insanely funny for ordinary sailors to wait for the proof (UV protection, mechanic and abrasive test) that 1,5 mil is better that 3 mil.
You know you can ask the answers to Pablo Soldano laugh


And may be the muppet, to use your word, are not the one you believe. Thank you, Andrew, it was fun.



Last edited by franck; 02/12/13 01:14 PM.
Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257361
02/12/13 01:24 PM
02/12/13 01:24 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Yawn.


I'm boatless.
Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257362
02/12/13 01:25 PM
02/12/13 01:25 PM
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franck Offline
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Originally Posted by Just Sail
One design sails usually end up being very expensive and of poor quality...just look at the Laser...same outdated poor quality sail for a very high price and if you want to play the game you pay for it (even though you know you are getting ripped off).


So sorry for this little trap but there, as notice Andrew, they used 1,5 mil. as "poor quality sails" using your own words.

Except that the argumentation was for explaining developpment class is not the obvious way. And each time there is economic interests, ordinary customers sailors should be aware and have many advices.


Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? [Re: Just Sail] #257364
02/12/13 01:30 PM
02/12/13 01:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Dacron, and workmanship has a lot more to do with quality than the material.


I'm boatless.
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