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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257421
02/13/13 02:02 PM
02/13/13 02:02 PM
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Daytona Beach Florida
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And 50% chance you will end up in the protest room.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: orphan] #257422
02/13/13 02:41 PM
02/13/13 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by orphan
And 50% chance you will end up in the protest room.


Not if I do my turn(s) and properly acknowledge that I fouled my opponent.

I'm not talking about willfully hitting someone or putting myself in position to get hit. You make risk/reward decisions in every race with every maneuver whether you recognize it or not. This is nothing different. You decide what to risk with how close you get to the start line, how far up you can luff at the start under another boat, how soon you can accelerate, how far to bear away to avoid another boat but lose as little distance up the course as possible, how far to little to ease the mainsheet coming around A mark to keep speed but not capsize...etc. etc. etc. As I said before:

To knowingly go into a situation where you WILL foul someone is WRONG.

To knowingly go into a situation where there is a reasonable risk that a boat will be damaged is ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

To continue through a tight crossing that you have a chance to get through clean and without causing the other boat to take avoiding action is RACING.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: orphan] #257423
02/13/13 02:48 PM
02/13/13 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by orphan
Do you really think 70% is acceptable? Sailing is not a contact sport(OK college sailing may be, but not for the rest of us). To me the only acceptable time to cross is if you know you can make it. The risk is not to your boat but the boat you are crossing. Personnaly I would like to see the rules changed to an auto DSQ(without the option to use it as a throwout) if there is contact and you are at fault. If damage to the other boat a possible regatta DSQ. Lets get back to sailing skills not sailing risks.


+1

All the more so since in this case, taking the stern of starboard boat can be turned into a tactical advantage.

Last edited by pgp; 02/13/13 02:49 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: orphan] #257426
02/13/13 03:13 PM
02/13/13 03:13 PM
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Quote
And 50% chance you will end up in the protest room.


and virtually certain to be DSQd....
It's a port starboard for cris sake!....
You are so far over the line ... all you can count on is that Starboard forgets to hail protest.

remember... Starboard does not have to wait and measure the cross in millimeters... He takes action and hails protest and you fail. He is the ROW boat.

"I know I could have made it.. had he just held his course" is a Fail. He was starboard. he is the ROW boat.
"It was soooo slooow that damage would be non existent...and I thought I had it...." Fail
He has no interest in trusting your mental calculations... or your risk reward calculation... or your opinion on love taps .... He is starboard and has right of way. What Port thinks about the cross is irrelevant... Starboard has right of way and will Hail Protest when he judges that the line has been crossed... He will win. it's a port starboard and ROW is fundamental to the game.

Now... if you want to come back and say... well... in this fleet.... we give you (and we count on) the gentleman's wiggle... That is another conversation....(Jake is not making this argument) full of lots of problems.. Notice that the the top of the sport that the GPS systems of the AC45's have eliminated all of this crap... there is no question about the facts and so the racers adjusted and just go racing.... We don't have the gps gear... we have the rules to fall back on to make the game safe and competitive.

Once again... I think these rule discussion veer off into areas that are destructive to the game...
Starboard has ROW ... period.

Eric wears the Judge hat very well... He is not opining on your risk reward calculation.. So... please don't read how he determines and judges the facts and applies the rules as POSITIVE ADVICE...

When he goes racing ... he races as a competitor and not as a judge... He respects the intent of the RRS... Starboard has ROW. He sails clean and tries not to let his emotional attachment to making the cross on that SOB effect his judgment on the stick. But, I am sure he has been caught, like all of us, ...does his turn, AND then he resets the mental line for himself on these situations and races on.

Starboard has ROW.... ROW means A LOT in this game. Starboard makes the call.

Jake, the crossing is not being refereed... This is not the last play of the superbowl... there is no third party judge on the water... Starbord just has to have a reasonable doubt and he will and should call protest... The judgement you make is based on the physics and the mindset of the starbord boat. THIS is racing.




Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/13/13 03:17 PM.

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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257427
02/13/13 03:24 PM
02/13/13 03:24 PM
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Daytona Beach Florida
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"To continue through a tight crossing that you have a chance to get through clean and without causing the other boat to take avoiding action is RACING".

70% is not a tight crossing. It is a 30% chance of getting the boat in the right in trouble. If I have a crossing boat I am not going to wait till the last minute to take action. I am going to take it as soon as I feel that may be a possibility that we will make contact. It may be something a little as easing the main or a slight course adjustment. I call protest and you say it was a liget cross. You going to do turns?
The problem here is the Cat mentality that we don't like to go to protest. So now I have to decide to let you get away with what you thought you had a 70% chance of doing or going to protest and wasting time.

My other option is to hold course and possibly take your rudders off.


Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257429
02/13/13 03:34 PM
02/13/13 03:34 PM
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Too far aft, midships, right at chain plate.

We will likely have this type of port tack infringement until starboard boats are relieved of all responsibilty to avoid a collision. Which is a rule change I would favor.

Last edited by pgp; 02/13/13 03:42 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: orphan] #257430
02/13/13 04:10 PM
02/13/13 04:10 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by orphan
"To continue through a tight crossing that you have a chance to get through clean and without causing the other boat to take avoiding action is RACING".

70% is not a tight crossing. It is a 30% chance of getting the boat in the right in trouble. If I have a crossing boat I am not going to wait till the last minute to take action. I am going to take it as soon as I feel that may be a possibility that we will make contact. It may be something a little as easing the main or a slight course adjustment. I call protest and you say it was a liget cross. You going to do turns?
The problem here is the Cat mentality that we don't like to go to protest. So now I have to decide to let you get away with what you thought you had a 70% chance of doing or going to protest and wasting time.

My other option is to hold course and possibly take your rudders off.



You guys need to take a breath. The boat on starboard is not going to be in trouble. He's not going to hit me and I'm not going to hit him. He might have to duck me slightly if my skipper wiggles the helm or somebody gets a non-favorable puff/shift, or an odd wave. I don't ever intentionally put myself the position where the other boat can't take avoiding action but if I think I have a reasonable chance to cross cleanly in an important crossing situation, I'm probably going to take it. This is tactics. It's racing 101. I do this often as does my competition to me. It's rare that I make a mistake on a crossing but it does happen from time to time.

I'm probably one of the top gentlemanly racers on the race course and have four or five thousand miles of racing under my belt. You can't call every cross with perfection. Some of them are close enough (AND BY CLOSE, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT A COLLISION) but to clear without causing the other boat to maneuver differently. If I ended up wrong and the other guy had anything near a reasonable argument that he had to wiggle the helm to avoid, I'm taking my penalty. I'm sorry that you guys can't seem to understand this concept - but it's one that happens every regatta to nearly everyone at the front of the fleet.

Again, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HIT SOMEONE OR BE HIT TO HAVE UNDERTAKEN A RISKY CROSSING AND FAILED. Although I'm not planning on it ever, the starboard boat also has an obligation to avoid contact if possible. If I'm entering a situation where he might not be able to avoid contact, then I have really dorked the donky...we're not talking about this situation. I even take eye contact into account and factor this into how confident I am that they know I'm there when I'm weighing the situation.

I'm finding that I'm repeating myself here - so I'm done with this conversation unless you guys can find some other point you want to belabor.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257431
02/13/13 04:12 PM
02/13/13 04:12 PM
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tampa, fl
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Jake - I agree with you 100%!!!!!!!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257432
02/13/13 04:20 PM
02/13/13 04:20 PM
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Sounds to me like you don't want to sail by the rules and want special dispensation not to.

Last edited by pgp; 02/13/13 04:20 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257433
02/13/13 04:31 PM
02/13/13 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by pgp
Sounds to me like you don't want to sail by the rules and want special dispensation not to.


I've typed up several snarkey personal-attack style responses but I'm just going to let it go with this point:

There are very few things that you know with 100% certainty beyond our own mortality. You have to weigh the risks and rewards and make a decision in almost everything you do, not only on the race course, but through life in general. With regards to racing, if you choose to make all of your decisions based on a certainty level of 100%, you will always be late to the start, you will always sail too far into a bad shift, you will always have too much room between you and your competition, and you will always finish at the back of the fleet.



Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257434
02/13/13 04:40 PM
02/13/13 04:40 PM
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But you also know that starboard has right of way. Why argue the point and look for ways to evade the rule?

Last edited by pgp; 02/13/13 04:40 PM.

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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257435
02/13/13 05:10 PM
02/13/13 05:10 PM
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Most of the top racers that I know personally and read in their advice columns would judge your strategy as being foolish.

They advise me to sail cleanly and coach you to do the same... the RISK that you accept and argue for and feel is "racing" ... they find completely unacceptable to winning (and good sportsmanship).

I think it was Torben Grael who ranted that he really hated all the rule changes and really had not read up on them... Why... such a cavalier attitude?.... because he KNOWS that winning is about staying out of the room and managing risk on the race course. Risk does not involve ROW PS issues.

Orphan nailed it... Catamaran sailors SHOULD call protest and not give that little stick wiggle up... Jake apparently counts on it as part of his racing strategy.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257437
02/13/13 05:19 PM
02/13/13 05:19 PM
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Jake, I hear you and we've all had close crossings that we've misjudged.

However, the rules are crystal clear that if you blow the cross, do a circle and still end up ahead of boats you should have ducked, you're out.

Mike

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: brucat] #257440
02/13/13 05:42 PM
02/13/13 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Jake, I hear you and we've all had close crossings that we've misjudged.

However, the rules are crystal clear that if you blow the cross, do a circle and still end up ahead of boats you should have ducked, you're out.

Mike


Who in the hell is saying anything different besides my detractors? I totally agree. I've been in a protest room once since I started sailing 13 years ago and I initiated the protest. I understand rules. I understand risk management. I understand and hold myself to very high values of sportsmanship. If I foul someone or something, I pay my price due even if it was questionable. I am an engineer, math is kinda my thing. I look at a race course in percentages of risk and reward. Go left =45%, go right=55%. If I'm behind a guy and only have a 15% chance of passing him and a 64% chance that I won't get passed, I'll gamble the 10% of going left to try and get lucky. When I put a percentage on a crossing situation and its more than 50%, it's my nerdy way of saying "Jake's pretty sure he has this cleanly". If I got it wrong and fouled the starboard boat, I'm doing my turns pronto and we laugh about it later. I'm not sure where you guys get this idea that I'm a cheat.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257442
02/13/13 06:15 PM
02/13/13 06:15 PM
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I think David's post got me fired up. Mainly because I see it happen far too often.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 02/13/13 06:18 PM.
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257446
02/13/13 08:03 PM
02/13/13 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pgp
But you also know that starboard has right of way. Why argue the point and look for ways to evade the rule?


Not trying to evade anything. If I think I have a 60% chance of making it - I have a better chance of crossing cleanly than not making it. I think you are getting caught up on my percentages. Consider, for instance, the phrase "50/50". This generally means it could go either way. If I determined that I had a 50/50 chance of clearing a boat on a cross, I have determined that I have an equal chance of making it as not making it. I probably wouldn't take that chance. 70% means that I have a very good chance of making it....I probably would go for it if the other consequences were low.

The thing is that you don't seem to understand is that this IS part of the rules. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a need for the rule. This is also the very commonly accepted way to race. I understand if someone really wants to get across my bow and they're close that they may go for it. If they don't make it, I steer down, hail "protest sucker" while grinning. As I mentioned in the other thread, this isn't some huge "HOLY ****!" event...it's not a big surprise and I don't consider this normal type of close crossing hazardous. I don't think I misjudge more than one, maybe two crosses a year...and I do a fair amount of racing and a lot of crossing. I get crossed a lot and my competition doesn't always make it clean. It's how it works. There hasn't been a protest or collision from any crossing event that I have been involved with in 10 years.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257451
02/13/13 09:44 PM
02/13/13 09:44 PM
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Quote
I'm not sure where you guys get this idea that I'm a cheat.


Who says you are a cheat...? The morality play is not appropriate and part of the general problem with protests in cat sailing.

You decided to write about pushing the ROW rule to the edge and arguing that it is part of the racing game. Your use of percentages ignores the fact that this is black and white rule, The way you write gives the impression that you believe this game is more like a refereed game where the ref's judgment is determinative. In your world, the starboard boat has some judgment to make about your possible foul... for example.. .. they could have given your more time to cross before calling foul.. You state that you give people a pass on their cross and the evidence that you are correct on this whole cross etiquette thing is that you don’t have any collisions or protests found against you. This is not an argument.

In your characterization of racing ... That 70% chance affords you that little bit of wiggle room that you get and that you use carefully as a cushion for your possible error is in your view ... part of racing and you are happy to risk needing that bit of room ...confident that starboard will give it to you to avoid a collision and hail protest (or not hail protest).... So, if you make it... great. Essentially you put the onus of sailing by the RRS on ROW sailing onto Starboard.

That is the fundamental problem.

The logic of sailboat racing and the RRS is constant... a PS cross is the same as a mark rounding... If you touch the mark .. you foul... you do the circle... ASAP. Nobody calls you on it... you self enforce. The onus of the rule is on you and you alone. The ROW rule is the same thing. If you foul... You self enforce! The onus of the rule is on you. It’s your responsibility to make the call on yourself...

The RRS are self enforced and if views differ…. STARBORD registers a PROTEST as a last resort… He doesn’t JUDGE it a foul (like a ref or a judge) … he calls YOUR ACTIONS into question with the hail…if there is any dispute… down the line… the Protest committee does the judging. There is no local etiquette in this game. There is no morality play either.

So... what is s a foul in a cross?
You call your own... The foul doesn't depend on whether the other guy hails protest... (just like touching a mark) The rest of the fleet is your competition as well.

Now... to keep the game civil... The RRS put the protest hail in... the competitors on the course have recourse if they see the world differently than you do. That mark touch by your transom or stick that you don’t see…. They can call protest. The ROW cross is your call but they can register their point of view…

The RRS try to make this point...Self Enforced.. You don't get to the room unless you meet the standard... Hail Protest in a timely fashion... Notice the language… the word is Protest…. Not foul…… … You have the same responsibility to call the foul (ROW violation) on your self before they said a word… Now after the hail Protest… you are reminded that opinions differ but the recourse is left completely up to you…The RRS are SELF ENFORCED.. or a Protest committee deals with it down the road.

With your view of the racing game you are avoiding the onus of making the call on your own and you leave the foul up to Orphan to decide.... and in your view you reserve the right to agree or disagree with Orphan’s opinion of the cross and do your circle or carry on to the protest room. That is not the RRS.
You argue... "This is also the very commonly accepted way to race"
Sadly, this is true… in cat racing.

But you can’t escape the logic of the RRS The rules are self enforceable... you should do your circle no matter what starboard says about the cross if you judge it a foul or too close… because the RRS about ROW are self enforceable.
As a matter of racing strategy.... the pro's tell you Don't push it…… In your terms… your call should be 100% cross or do something else.
As a matter of safety... the bright line of ROW is critical in how safety on the course is managed.

Obviously, I completely disagree with your mindset of using the percentages , it is a slippery slope which caused ORPHAN to do something other sail on starboard and be the ROW boat… (he has to judge your actions and avoid you) Take the approach of… I can cross… 100% sure and I call my own fouls when mistakes or circumstances happen and the game will be better.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257452
02/13/13 09:59 PM
02/13/13 09:59 PM
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
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Wow, I step away from my computer just long enough to earn a living and a $hit storm erupts. I guess I gave you guys something to do in winter (while we sail on in sunny Florida).

Thanks, Jake, for understanding my point exactly. I did not ever mean to even slightly risk a COLLISION, only accepting the risk of a protest.

Jake said,
"To continue through a tight crossing that you have a chance to get through clean and without causing the other boat to take avoiding action is RACING."

Exactly. Move the bar of a successful cross to 90% certainty you'll pass without a PROTEST. Is that enough to chance that the starboard boat will not have the ROW, that is, he's too far away to claim rights? How about 95% certainty...how about 99% sure you're clear? When do you gamble to get ahead?

Which one of you has NEVER run a "very" yellow light (not red, just yellow)? Did you risk death? Well, maybe, but you ALL have run a yellow and so you all risked DEATH, not just a DSQ. Ever have your wife squeal about your agressive driving? Her level of risk is different than yours.

My point is, when do you challange the odds to get ahead in a boat race (remove any serious chance of collision)? And do you plan not only IF you should cross, but do you carefully plan on what you'd do after if you do get protested?


Last edited by David Parker; 02/13/13 10:01 PM.
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257453
02/13/13 09:59 PM
02/13/13 09:59 PM
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" Essentially you put the onus of sailing by the RRS on ROW sailing onto Starboard.

That is the fundamental problem."

+1


Pete Pollard
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Mark Schneider] #257457
02/14/13 08:02 AM
02/14/13 08:02 AM
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Jake Offline OP
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Mark...stop, please. You're looking like a fool. If I say I'm 70% sure we can make this clean. It means I think I can make it without impeding starboard. It's not a morality play - it's a percentage play. Morality never even comes into question.

Please read this carefully so you understand what I mean: my 70/30 proposition does not mean "I think the only 70% of my boat is going to clear and the last 30% of my boat is going to get hit of starboard doesn't take avoiding action". Also note that I would never go into a crossing situation, while on port, with confidence that we could not clear cleanly. Please also note that if I misjudged I would ALWAYS err on the side of my fault and take the penalty turns.

Things are not black and white on the race course. In some tight crossings, you can't possibly KNOW for certain that you will make it because of the odd puff, wave, nerves, etc....I choose to grade my level of certainty and use that to make a judgement - that's how I think. I do this the right way. I don't get snarled at on the race course, my competition respects me, and hell, even Ding doesn't call me out on this...and he's crotchety on this stuff.


Jake Kohl
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