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by northsea junkie. 03/12/20 08:13 AM
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257458
02/14/13 08:09 AM
02/14/13 08:09 AM
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pgp Offline
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You've just stated, unequivicolly, you don't accept that starboard has right of way and you are willing to challenge that right of way.

Circumstances on the race course may not be black and white but this rule is.

Once again, you're building a case to evade the rule. What you're doing is a little like creative accounting to evade taxes. Of course you're willing to pay the penalty IF you get caught. How kind of you.

Last edited by pgp; 02/14/13 08:10 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257459
02/14/13 08:28 AM
02/14/13 08:28 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pgp
You've just stated, unequivicolly, you don't accept that starboard has right of way and you are willing to challenge that right of way.


Show me where I stated this....even in a fuzzy manner, much less unequivocally. Starboard always has right of way in this situation. I'm only challenging the level of my own certainty upon which I can cross without fouling starboard.

If you go back and read my first post, you'll see that I elected to not make the cross because I was unsure that we would clear them. Later, our competitor said he thought we would have crossed clean.

I think you guys are confusing me with Dave who stated (and I paraphrase) "foul them, the turns penalty hurts less than the situation you ended up in". <---this wasn't me.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257460
02/14/13 08:31 AM
02/14/13 08:31 AM
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pgp Offline
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Anytime your certainty is less than 100% you're challenging the rule.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257461
02/14/13 08:34 AM
02/14/13 08:34 AM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pgp
Anytime your certainty is less than 100% you're challenging the rule.


nope. Nothing is certain.


(I'm trying a new argument tactic with you - philosophical debates kept under 5 words each).


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257475
02/14/13 09:14 AM
02/14/13 09:14 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Jake don't fall into the Pete/Mark vortex unless of course it's a slow day at work and you're bored. You've made your point and your point and your point the rest of us get it, you'll never change the direction of Pete or Mark.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257477
02/14/13 09:19 AM
02/14/13 09:19 AM
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pgp Offline
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"the rest of us" That's a little grandiose.

The victim in the port/starboard encounter I've alluded to was considering violence for a time and there was talk of black listing the offender from the club.

Jake's attitude moves the onus of the rule from the port tack boat to the starboard tack boat. I doubt that has unanimous support.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257478
02/14/13 09:21 AM
02/14/13 09:21 AM
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Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
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Daytona Beach Florida
Jake,
I hear what you are saying. But I think you have the percentages wrong. The way you explain it it sounds more like you are talking 98 percent sure you will make it and only 2 that you will not. And you are taking in considerations for speed wind angles other boats etc.
It really sounds like you only take the cross if you feel you have a really good chance(98%) on making or it you do not it will be without any real impact on the right of way boat.

The problem is how other sailors might interpret what you are saying.

Dave you are not only wrong buy way out in left field. The actions you are endorsing will get you or another boat in real trouble or someone really hurt.

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: David Ingram] #257481
02/14/13 09:39 AM
02/14/13 09:39 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Jake don't fall into the Pete/Mark vortex unless of course it's a slow day at work and you're bored. You've made your point and your point and your point the rest of us get it, you'll never change the direction of Pete or Mark.


It's a slow day. grin


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257482
02/14/13 09:40 AM
02/14/13 09:40 AM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pgp

Jake's attitude moves the onus of the rule from the port tack boat to the starboard tack boat. I doubt that has unanimous support.


Only you assert this position.


this five word thing is tough


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: orphan] #257483
02/14/13 09:41 AM
02/14/13 09:41 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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50%+ = better than average chance clean.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257487
02/14/13 09:52 AM
02/14/13 09:52 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by pgp

Jake's attitude moves the onus of the rule from the port tack boat to the starboard tack boat. I doubt that has unanimous support.


Only you assert this position.


this five word thing is tough


Not quite, a similar opinion was offered last evening.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257488
02/14/13 09:54 AM
02/14/13 09:54 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake



this five word thing is tough


At least you're having fun.

Does a contraction count as one word or two?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: David Ingram] #257490
02/14/13 10:13 AM
02/14/13 10:13 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Ingram

Does a contraction count as one word or two?


It counts as one - and numbers/symbols don't count at all.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257491
02/14/13 10:15 AM
02/14/13 10:15 AM
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Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
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From the outside, it looks like there is several different conversations/discussions going on at the same time. some of the latest posts have nothing to do with the initial one. Somewhere a tangent evolved, albeit loosely, and I think several of you guys are on different pages.

Just sayin,

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257492
02/14/13 10:17 AM
02/14/13 10:17 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
Mark...stop, please. You're looking like a fool. If I say I'm 70% sure we can make this clean. It means I think I can make it without impeding starboard.


Huh.... using plain language you would say... I Can or I Can't cross.... no probablities matter here..

That is exactly how you set this situation up... You made a No GO decision.
Quote

It's not a morality play - it's a percentage play. Morality never even comes into question.

You infered that I called you a cheater.... that is morality
I assert that your mindset and language violate the RRS.
Quote

Please read this carefully so you understand what I mean: my 70/30 proposition does not mean "I think the only 70% of my boat is going to clear and the last 30% of my boat is going to get hit of starboard doesn't take avoiding action". Also note that I would never go into a crossing situation, while on port, with confidence that we could not clear cleanly.

OK... You keep saying two different things....
70/30 is risk that you will take and break the rule.. (not hit the last 30% of the boat.)
vs
100% that you will not break the rule.

The game requires the second standard. (standards are pass/fail)

Quote

Please also note that if I misjudged I would ALWAYS err on the side of my fault and take the penalty turns.

Never a question that if you were at fault or challanged ... you would do your turns.

However... you ignore the principle of the rule... or simply don't accept it... (petes point)

Quote

Things are not black and white on the race course. In some tight crossings, you can't possibly KNOW for certain that you will make it because of the odd puff, wave, nerves, etc....I choose to grade my level of certainty and use that to make a judgement - that's how I think. I do this the right way. I don't get snarled at on the race course, my competition respects me, and hell, even Ding doesn't call me out on this...and he's crotchety on this stuff.


I completely agree that the REALITY on the water can make your 100%... "I will cross Orphan" cleanly go sideways.

At that point... (Follows in time and as a consequence of your decision to cross) the rules require starbord to avoid collision and allow you to take a penalty turn.... HISTORICALLY.... you would have been DSQd from the race....

The RRS are set up so that you accept responsiblity to call your own on the PS ROW. and ROW is absolute.

These are absolute requirments and set the standard for behavior on the race course.

The mindset you use 70/30..... risk reward, collision or not... is simply a violation of the rules... falls below the standard... What you count on is the local etiquette of crossing ... However, the chronic low level violations day to day on the race course violoate the standard.

Orphan is being nice to you... the issue is more then language you are using.

Try this.
So... this is a call your own sport.... (we agree on this correct?)

If the penalty of a foul in a cross was DSQ for you .... AND you agree that you and you alone make the call on your possible foul of Starbord... on the water

How would you describe the descion making process?

This is the standard of the RRS... (Standards are pass fail)



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257493
02/14/13 10:35 AM
02/14/13 10:35 AM
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pgp Offline
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"At that point... (Follows in time and as a consequence of your decision to cross) the rules require starbord to avoid collision and allow you to take a penalty turn.... HISTORICALLY.... you would have been DSQd from the race.... "

I'd like to see the historical rule reinstated.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Mark Schneider] #257499
02/14/13 10:47 AM
02/14/13 10:47 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider



If the penalty of a foul in a cross was DSQ for you .... AND you agree that you and you alone make the call on your possible foul of Starbord... on the water

How would you describe the descion making process?

This is the standard of the RRS... (Standards are pass fail)



Same. 30% weighs heavier on consequence.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257503
02/14/13 11:35 AM
02/14/13 11:35 AM
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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I'd have to +1 to Jake for being a very nice dude to sail with/against. Good grasp of rules and not going to do anything really stupid (we'll let that sailing with the beach wheels thing go for this comment, but...)

I think I first got to know Jake at one of the races in the Keys. I think he did so many turns that weekend he was dizzy... I think we've all been there at some point. Alex schooled me a few times on some of the finer points of RRS

And I'm sure we've all made "questionable" crosses. Some worked, some involved crash-bear aways/ crash-tacks. I can't think of any in my limited sailing that involved collisions. And I REALLY can't think of any that involved INTENTIONAL damage... But I don't race professional.

I'm sure someone said before that it's probably the STB tacker's obligation to enforce the rules by noting a protest (NOT HITTING THE OFFENDER) and altering course to avoid collision.


Jay

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #257671
02/21/13 07:46 AM
02/21/13 07:46 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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[sarcasm] OMG! The unbelievable lack of ethics! [/sarcasm]

Originally Posted by Darren Bundock via Facebook 2/20/13
Funny as Team NZL attempted to cross Oracle Team USA AC72. We were crossing, then not, then they closed their eyes and just went for it.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257673
02/21/13 07:52 AM
02/21/13 07:52 AM
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Balls of steel, and a program with a fat enough wallet to pay for it.

Still not legal, even in a small fleet.

Mike

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