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Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: brucat] #258053
03/04/13 06:10 PM
03/04/13 06:10 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
You made my point with RRS 87. But, just because the rule is in the book doesn't mean they don't ignore it. I push back every time I'm asked to review as a judge or PRO, and point out that rule.

I try to get OA's not to write new rules (and sailing instructions are rules). When they insist, and a protest arises, I have declared SI's invalid.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #258054
03/04/13 06:29 PM
03/04/13 06:29 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
John Craig, the AC PRO spoke about the rethinking of the rules for the cup compettion at a talk i attended...

It's a mistake to draw parallels between America's Cup rules and RRS fleet racing rules.

First of all, the America's Cup is run in an umpired format founded on match racing. If you read the RRS match racing rules, you'll see that one boat must protest (by flying a "Y" flag) in order for the Umpires to impose a penalty. The culture of self-penalization never existed in match racing.

Secondly, The America's Cup does not use the Racing Rules of Sailing. It uses a completely separate and independent rulebook. There are many differences between the two sets of rules. Differences in how protests are lodged is a small portion.

Thirdly, you're comparing a small group of professional sailors competing in a high-stakes event to a large populace of amateur sailors racing for fun. The professionals are supremely skilled and intimately familiar with the rules. Of course they're going to push the rules to the utmost. That's their job.

Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Isotope235] #258071
03/05/13 08:59 AM
03/05/13 08:59 AM
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Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
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Tom Korz Offline
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@bacho-This is what I was trying to say!!! wink Quoted from Isotope42.

In adult dinghy racing, there seems to be an aversion to protesting. I think people view a protest as an accusation of cheating (which it is not). It's simply enforcement. . For the most part though, I think sailors at the club level generally show great personal integrity when it comes to following the rules.

If, however, competitors witness rule infractions and don't protest, then they don't deserve to complain. They are (how shall I put this politely)... not part of the solution

Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Isotope235] #258074
03/05/13 09:36 AM
03/05/13 09:36 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Stop looking at the trees of this debate.

Of course the rules, skills, etc differ and that is not the point of the AC anecdote.... the fundamental rule has not changed

The point is that BEHAVIORS CHANGE...


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #258078
03/05/13 10:16 AM
03/05/13 10:16 AM
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Ideally everyone who is incurring a penalty does their turn. Unfortunately the sport involves people and sometimes they don’t or wont. It may be from being a dick or just ignorance of the rules, it does not matter.

At a high level like the AC or Olympics, these will be called for sure as there is something more at stake. Most of the lurkers here are attending local fleet stuff and the various ad hoc race. No money, sponsorship etc involved, just bragging rights over 4 people who should be your friends. At these races the protest committee is often more random than anything else. Taking a protest into a local event in my experience results in a big part in why more people do not do it. I have seen way too many protest results that were based on favoritism and such to make it a crap shoot to even bother. For me a local event always was as much and maybe more about the social aspect than the racing. I am not likely to take hours of my social time to run something in front of a protest committee (unless there is damage or injury)
I will typically approach the other racers about it on the beach, and I definitely realize the fact that I cannot bitch about it if I do not file a protest. For the most part, you all know the others at an event. You also know who pulls the stunts to their advantage. Take the extra effort to avoid them and the race experience will be more positive.

Re: Respect the Game! Is the fundamental principle still releva [Re: Mark Schneider] #258079
03/05/13 10:16 AM
03/05/13 10:16 AM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.... the fundamental rule has not changed

The point is that BEHAVIORS CHANGE...

If behaviors changed in AC racing, it is because enforcement became automatic, not because of any change to sailors' ethics.

I don't understand where this idea that only the boat breaking a rule is responsible for enforcing the rules. That has never been the case under any version of the Racing Rules of Sailing. All boats are expected to follow the rules. All boats are expected to enforce them.

If sailors are not willing to enforce the rules themselves (as expected under the Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules), then I have little sympathy when they complain that others don't.

I beleive that the solution to the problem that Peter Wilson wrote about lies not in pining for the good old days, nor in a different penalty system, but in changing the attitude that enforcement is somebody else's responsibility. If you want to discuss why people don't protest, and what might be done to encourage them, then I'm happy to participate. Otherwise, I'm tired of repeating myself.

Sincerely,
Eric

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