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2022 Charlotte Harbor Regatta, Feb. 4-6, 2022
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Carbon stick, would you do it? #255552
12/07/12 09:27 AM
12/07/12 09:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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I'm thinking about buying a carbon mast. Pro's? Con's?

Main reason being I can't consistently right an aluminum stick. It depends on the mast, some I can, some I can't. Even when I can, I'm borderline.


I'm boatless.
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Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255555
12/07/12 09:45 AM
12/07/12 09:45 AM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I'm thinking about buying a carbon mast. Pro's? Con's?

Main reason being I can't consistently right an aluminum stick. It depends on the mast, some I can, some I can't. Even when I can, I'm borderline.


If it's built properly with bend characteristics that have been proven in the A-cat fleet and cost isn't an issue, you gotta do it.

Con: it will bite into your rum budget


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255556
12/07/12 10:16 AM
12/07/12 10:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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I was thinking about talking to Hall. I'm braced for the $7k price tag.

Depends how badly I get slaughtered on taxes this year too. I might be flat broke in a few months.


I'm boatless.
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255557
12/07/12 10:32 AM
12/07/12 10:32 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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You also need a new mainsail.

Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255558
12/07/12 11:05 AM
12/07/12 11:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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Yeah, that's a concern as well. I'd have to buy two. Probably more like four. I'm sure the first couple will be a mistake, and will have to be tweaked.


I'm boatless.
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255561
12/07/12 12:31 PM
12/07/12 12:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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Why not get one from Matt MacDonald? He's building and shipping them in house now. You might not need a new main, masts can be built to be incredibly flexible. You might be able to recut your current one and worst comes to worse Glaser would know how to make a sail to Matt's mast.
Ben only makes the A Cat mast to support the class, he's not really interested in small carbon masts.

Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255563
12/07/12 01:41 PM
12/07/12 01:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I was thinking about talking to Hall. I'm braced for the $7k price tag.

Depends how badly I get slaughtered on taxes this year too. I might be flat broke in a few months.


Being on a tight budget isn't really conducive to R&D.

Any reason you need it other than you not being fat enough to right the boat? I would think gaining a few pounds would be a lot cheaper than a $7,000+ mast/sail combo?


Jay

Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255567
12/07/12 04:05 PM
12/07/12 04:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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Karl_Brogger  Offline OP
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If there's a performance gain, I don't really care about the cost. (within reason, I'm not willing to blow $20k on a rig) Work has been crazy, some of my investments is rockin... Its time to play


I'm boatless.
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #255569
12/07/12 04:12 PM
12/07/12 04:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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tback  Offline
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Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb

Any reason you need it other than you not being fat enough to right the boat?


Stepping the mast? Easier on your back?


USA 777
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255602
12/09/12 03:39 PM
12/09/12 03:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Do the F16 carbon masts weigh less than the aluminum rigs? I thought they have to weigh a minimum of 6kg and have the same mast tip weight? Not sure that helps with the original problem of righting the boat single handed?


Scorpion F18
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255606
12/09/12 06:02 PM
12/09/12 06:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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Karl_Brogger  Offline OP
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That's assuming the aluminum stick is at tip weight. Much easier to add corrector weight than figure out how to make it lighter.


I'm boatless.
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255612
12/10/12 07:04 AM
12/10/12 07:04 AM
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Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
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Most of the carbon sticks are underweight at the tip by some way. Most of the Uni sailors here in the UK have a carbon stick as most of the boats came with them from new ( Stealth ) and have found them extremely robust and most of all, a cinch to raise the mast on your own.

To get around the F16 tip weight, we simply fit a lead corrector weight if we attend a nationals or such like, ( so far in the UK that law has been ignored and to date we haven't had to fit the weights, very sensible in my opinion )and whilst club and pleasure sailing, enjoy the benefits of the carbon stick.

But even at full class tip weight, you should be able to right the boat if you follow all the basic principals, release the downhaul, centre the mast rotator, release the main sheet, turn the sail at right angles to the wind to get lift from the sail ( if you have to paddle the boat into the right position ), get your body almost touching the water ( probably the most common error )and then once it begins to right, use your arms to pull the boat over from actually being in the water.

Fully sealing the mast is also a basic prequisite and any water entry into the mast will make life difficult. My own mast for example will simply sit on the waters surface for as long as I need to organise myself.

The only time I have seen the light weights really struggle is if the wind completely dies and the flat top of the sail sort of glues itself to the water ( stiction ) and you really need to almost shake the mast to be able to right the boat.

Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: waynemarlow] #255620
12/10/12 12:02 PM
12/10/12 12:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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I like that engineering term "stiction" smile


Jay

Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255645
12/10/12 08:02 PM
12/10/12 08:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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WA, ID, MT
Hey Wayne!
How does de rotating the mast help? And when you say 'turn the sail at right angles to the wind', do you mean bows into the wind, so the mast/sail are perpendicular to the wind direction? Thanks!

Dave

Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #255651
12/10/12 10:44 PM
12/10/12 10:44 PM
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pgp Offline
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Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: davefarmer] #255657
12/11/12 04:40 AM
12/11/12 04:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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Its sort of a theory but if the mast is allowed to rotate out in really flat water, it allows the tip of the sail to lay completely flat on the water and " stiction " seems to really get a hold of the sail. When its a bit of a mill pond and I have made a bit of an " error " ( typically messing with the spinny and seeing how high I can fly the hull broad reaching ) the first thing I do is let the downhaul off and then derotate the mast, at that point you can actually see a little chink of light in the gap between mast and sail bolt rope area. As you try and right the boat, the sail always seems to break free from that area.

Well its one of those theorys but at 90kgs I don't have much problem righting the boat and in stronger winds, with the bows pointing into wind fully, I almost don't need a rope simply pulling on the dolphin striker.

I think there was a Stealth Promo film showing just how easily a F16 can be righted by a guy who is around the 80kgs mark at Datchet on the old Stealth Catamaran website.

Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #258333
03/15/13 07:54 AM
03/15/13 07:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 22
RParentsail Offline
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Posts: 22
Is Matt McDonald the only one making carbon masts for the F16 class right now? I'm interested in making the boat lighter too since sailing a Viper that's a good 50lbs overweight the class minimum has its disadvantages when it comes to racing against Matt's carbon boats.


"Nothing that is worth knowing can be taught." ~Oscar Wilde
RPSailing.blogspot.com
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #258344
03/15/13 05:42 PM
03/15/13 05:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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Only one in the USA that I know of. There's a couple of options in Europe, but I can't think of the names.


I'm boatless.
Re: Carbon stick, would you do it? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #258810
04/08/13 01:40 PM
04/08/13 01:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
I purchased a mast from Matt McDonald today after he sent me this information yesterday. He said it was O.K. to share this on the forum. I will be traveling from Toledo, Ohio to get the mast next month and would be willing to bring more back with me from Florida for some gas money.

Matt wrote: The most obvious difference in the aluminum versus the carbon sticks is in setting up the boat (stepping the mast). With you’re A class experience you understand. If righting the boat is an issue, then the carbon makes a difference here too. I am 5-7 and typically around 145-150 lbs. I can right the F16 with an aluminum stick solo only if it is relatively windy. I can right the boat solo with the carbon stick all the time. I feel we have less pitch in the boat with the carbon mast, and a bit more power off the wind. The F16 class when they set up their rules wanted to allow carbon masts. They put a minimum tip weight provision in the mast requirements though so that a super light high mod carbon stick would not start showing up that forced everyone racing to go out and get a carbon stick if they wanted to race competitively. As such the carbon sticks we make are not as light as they could be, but this hopefully helps with having added material, so that they are not as prone to busting as some of the latest versions of A class masts seem to be experiencing. There was a huge variation between the batches of aluminum masts we have bought over the years. You end up with something in the neighborhood of 6-8 pounds savings going with a carbon over the aluminum.

Our carbon shape is very similar to the shape used by most of the A class builders, which is also very similar to the current aluminum superwing section used on the F16s. (62 X 154mm)

We have been doing a lot of work on bends for this section. We have been working with the bendy masts along the same lines as the A class. Trying to maximize the bend fore and aft while keeping a stiffer side to side bend profile. This allows you to use a fuller main sail and to get a lot more range out of the set up. The stiffer side wall then helps you keep power in the sail off wind with the spin.

I have a couple of masts available now.

Last edited by Mike Fahle; 04/08/13 01:43 PM.

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