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Better Fact Check this one..... #258665
04/02/13 09:30 AM
04/02/13 09:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline OP
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Read this short article until the end please!

The Washington Post

The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consulafft, at Bergen, Norway

Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.

Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by more inches of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.

Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds. Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most coastal cities uninhabitable.

* * * * * * * * *
I apologize, I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2, 1922, as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post - over 90 years ago.
*****************
Damn that pesky global warming.......................


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

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-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258676
04/02/13 10:50 AM
04/02/13 10:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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We've got a thread already for this stuff Todd.


I'm boatless.
Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Karl_Brogger] #258680
04/02/13 12:09 PM
04/02/13 12:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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interesting to note from NPR (not exactly your climate skeptic)... sea ice melt will not change sea levels, as the ice has already displaced its mass in the ocean. Glacier and sheet ice over land might...

not that I want to hash this all over again on a SAILING forum...


Jay

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258687
04/02/13 06:01 PM
04/02/13 06:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
interesting to note from NPR (not exactly your climate skeptic)... sea ice melt will not change sea levels, as the ice has already displaced its mass in the ocean. Glacier and sheet ice over land might...

not that I want to hash this all over again on a SAILING forum...



The devil is in the details - yes, melting "sea ice" will not change sea levels as the ice is floating and is displacing it's weight in water. However, I think some of the detail is getting lost in this translation because there is more than just "sea ice" out there. I'm betting another 10 minutes of that episode would have probably gotten around to this part of the subject.

After hearing some reports of a 30 foot sea level rise a couple of years ago, I too was skeptical so I did some research and math on my own. What I found is that even if you just consider Antarctica, where most of the ice is on a continental land mass, that a 30 foot sea level rise is incredibly EASY to hit if only a small part of Antarctica melted. This ignores Greenland, the arctic, and many other land based masses of ice. It's astonishing but true.

If Greenland were to all melt, the oceans would rise 20 feet. If Antarctica were to all melt, the oceans would rise 200 feet. We're talking about a LOT of ice out there and it's not melting "tomorrow". The main estimates on future ocean levels if the current melt rates continue is between 20 and 40 inches by 2100.


Jake Kohl
Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258689
04/02/13 06:55 PM
04/02/13 06:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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It's kinda fun to watch everyone gradually convert to the idea that "hey, things are actually getting warmer". It's only taken about 10 years. Todd, you are of a withering few, my friend. While it may be entertaining to point at the drastic cold snaps and make a snarky comment about how it ironically relates to "warming", the truth is that these are due largely to instability in the weather driven by incredibly slight changes in ocean currents and other variables. Giant snow event!? "Aaaaa! - Global warming is a farce!" Yet, it's moisture in the atmosphere (from extra warmth at various layers in the ocean surface and atmosphere) that creates snow. You'll get there eventually - hang in there.


Jake Kohl
Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Jake] #258690
04/02/13 08:38 PM
04/02/13 08:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacific....
Todd may not be onboard with global warming/global climate change but he is totally convinced the lizard people control our societies.

From Public Policy Polling

- 37% of voters believe global warming is a hoax, 51% do not. Republicans say global warming is a hoax by a 58-25 margin, Democrats disagree 11-77, and Independents are more split at 41-51. 61% of Romney voters believe global warming is a hoax

- 4% of voters say they believe lizard people control our societies by gaining political power

- 28% of voters believe secretive power elite with a globalist agenda is conspiring to eventually rule the world through an authoritarian world government, or New World Order. A plurality of Romney voters (38%) believe in the New World Order compared to 35% who dont

- 15% of voters say the government or the media adds mind-controlling technology to TV broadcast signals

- 5% believe exhaust seen in the sky behind airplanes is actually chemicals sprayed by the government for sinister reasons



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Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Jake] #258700
04/03/13 09:55 AM
04/03/13 09:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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I would point out that I've always believed the climate changes. It's been doing so for millions of years and will continue well after humanity's demise.

I'm still not sure (1) how much of that (as a % of total) is "our" fault and (2) how much of the climate we can "control"

My contribution to the green movement is primarily through conservation. Because I'm too much of a cheapskate to pay for wasted energy (like leaving the lights on, driving a gas guzzler, etc)


Jay

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258703
04/03/13 10:23 AM
04/03/13 10:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I would point out that I've always believed the climate changes. It's been doing so for millions of years and will continue well after humanity's demise.

I'm still not sure (1) how much of that (as a % of total) is "our" fault and (2) how much of the climate we can "control"

My contribution to the green movement is primarily through conservation. Because I'm too much of a cheapskate to pay for wasted energy (like leaving the lights on, driving a gas guzzler, etc)


X2, I believe things change in cycles and I am not sure humans can contribute much towards the change in either direction. Plenty of instances in recorded history where places were once warmer (and cooler) than they are now.

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258704
04/03/13 10:55 AM
04/03/13 10:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Well, I can tell you I have seen the effects of humans on the atmosphere, every time I descend into LAX or SAN, there is a huge brown layer of smog you come into at about 5000', give or take a few, depending on temps and surface winds. It has gotten better in the past 20 years, due to the emission controls put on the cars, and better fuel blends, etc. but it's still there.

And then there's China and India, you should see some of the smog they generate! It makes the worst day in LA look like a spring morning in the alps!

Now, compare that to what Mother Nature throws up into the atmosphere all by herself, in the way of volcanic ash and forest fire smoke, and the big red dust storms coming off the African coast, well, I'd call it a draw.

BUT...one thing is certain, we humans can at least try to do something about it, in the way of conservation and/or emissions reductions. Will it change anything, long term?

Who knows, but at least we could try to clean up after ourselves. It couldn't hurt.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258712
04/03/13 11:55 AM
04/03/13 11:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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The environment is a commie plot.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258713
04/03/13 11:59 AM
04/03/13 11:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
J
jkkartz1 Offline
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J

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Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
Disregard for the environment is a capitalist plot.

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258715
04/03/13 12:31 PM
04/03/13 12:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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Where is the environment anyway? The yucca pen? Maybe Cecil Webb?

Last edited by pgp; 04/03/13 12:31 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258718
04/03/13 02:24 PM
04/03/13 02:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
J
jkkartz1 Offline
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jkkartz1  Offline
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J

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Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
To paraphrase Savwafair, It's everywhere.

I'm a water person.

The Red Neck Yacht Club is meeting out on Bermont Road this weekend. I'll pass.

I spent last weekend at the Fish Shacks off Pineland. But I'm wary of eating the oysters. Unfortunately, in much of Charlotte Harbor the eating of raw oysters is not recommended due to fecal coliform. The developers of Cape Coral and Port Charlotte did not put in sewers. It's cheaper that way. Now when we really need them, no one is willing to pay the price.

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Timbo] #258719
04/03/13 02:26 PM
04/03/13 02:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
J
jkkartz1 Offline
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J

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Punta Gorda, FL
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well, I can tell you I have seen the effects of humans on the atmosphere, every time I descend into LAX or SAN, there is a huge brown layer of smog you come into at about 5000', give or take a few, depending on temps and surface winds. It has gotten better in the past 20 years, due to the emission controls put on the cars, and better fuel blends, etc. but it's still there.

And then there's China and India, you should see some of the smog they generate! It makes the worst day in LA look like a spring morning in the alps!

Now, compare that to what Mother Nature throws up into the atmosphere all by herself, in the way of volcanic ash and forest fire smoke, and the big red dust storms coming off the African coast, well, I'd call it a draw.

BUT...one thing is certain, we humans can at least try to do something about it, in the way of conservation and/or emissions reductions. Will it change anything, long term?

Who knows, but at least we could try to clean up after ourselves. It couldn't hurt.


Watch the Chinese Grand Prix this weekend. You'll see the air.

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258720
04/03/13 02:28 PM
04/03/13 02:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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Ah, Grasshopper! Cape Coral (by area the 2nd largest city in the state) started an extensive water, sewer, reclaimed water program years ago. I've had all three for well over 10 years.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: pgp] #258722
04/03/13 02:57 PM
04/03/13 02:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Marco Island had the same issue (septic causing fecal coliform blooms in the waterways). I think they just finished up a huge sewer project that cost a go-zillion dollars, but maybe it will help in the long run.

I recall Tampa Bay used to be pretty dang ugly in the 60s, but has since cleaned up quite nicely.


Jay

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258744
04/04/13 10:14 PM
04/04/13 10:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacific....


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Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: hobie1616] #258748
04/05/13 07:05 AM
04/05/13 07:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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so if we stopped generating electricity and using petrol, how much could we stop or reverse?

I use +/- 700 KwH per month at the house (no heating oil) and my car gets 40 mpg on low octane gas.

I travel locally a lot (radius 100 miles, average trip 25 miles). I could bike perhaps, but would never cover my territory even if I were doped up like Lance.


Jay

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258752
04/05/13 08:58 AM
04/05/13 08:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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The only estimate I've read is that 2% of the increase in green house gases is directly attributable to human influence.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Better Fact Check this one..... [Re: Todd_Sails] #258753
04/05/13 09:01 AM
04/05/13 09:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Todd:
Even if you don't believe in global warming, the worst case scenario of "going green" is that we will have less pollution, cleaner air, and less dependency on oil and coal.
How can that be a bad thing?

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