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by northsea junkie. 03/12/20 08:13 AM
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Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! #259280
05/02/13 07:09 AM
05/02/13 07:09 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
I always found the most challenging point of sail to be jib reaching in strong winds. We proved this extensively yesterday with klaxons ablaze and an epic righting sequence where we both ended up under the boat clinging to the dolphin striker with both hands while the boat happily reached off with uncleated main but cleated jib. Quite an experience that one. No more salty seafood food for me the rest of the week, I have had my fill!

We sailed with the main traveller out and main sheeted reasonably. Mast was fully rotated and some downhaul. I released the main after we stuffed and I had to hold on to the rear beam to try to save it but I believe sheeting out doomed us as the apparent moved aft. Jib was sheeted off a bit but still not enough to fly properly.
Boat is set up for upwind/downwind with not enough sheet to sheet the jib out properly for this course. Waves was short and steep. Wind in the region of 20knots with fairly more in the gusts.

When transitioning from upwind to downwind we always have to pass through jib reaching and reaching before the spi can be set.

* Now, what are the latest tricks on an Infusion to avoid going down while jib reaching?

* Any new tips for how to handle the transitions?

*How the heck do you re-enter an Infusion with style from the water with all the rounded surfaces and nothing solid to hold on to. Our re-entry yesterday was.. interesting and left both of us with lactic acid sprouting from our ears.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259282
05/02/13 08:24 AM
05/02/13 08:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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It's a really tough point of sail on any of the F18s that are so refined specifically for upwind and downwind sailing. Here are some random (mostly unorganized) thoughts:

If it's windy enough that you are wondering how to depower, I over-ease the jib and focus on the main. We have a doubled up sheet take-up system in the main beam that gives us enough jib sheet to ease it in this case. If you can't ease the jib enough, you are choking off the bottom of the main and driving with the upper part of the rig - which also doesn't help your stability. If your crew can run the main, it really comes in handy here. Ease the traveler so you can sheet the main as hard as possible but if the traveler is all the way out, that's pretty much it. As you noted, the apparent wind can swing wildly as you accelerate and decelerate and if you have a lot of twist in the sail the top part of the rig will start to power up if you stuff it and slow down - making the tipping forces worse. Flatter is better. Downhaul on as much as needed. One of the biggest helps is to get the boards up in almost a downwind position - they'll help keep the boat from tripping so quickly. Talk before hand with your crew about what the emergency exit manuever is (steering up or down, easing the main, etc.) and we sometimes agree on a short word to announce the emergency depower move (usually an expletive).

You do all this and you will still be on the ragged edge. Waves make it tougher...staying at the back of the boat is really important but if you are double trapped, it requires a full commitment to survive there...there is no half way to go fast on this angle. However, you should be able to trust in one thing - you are moving so fast and the crash will be so sudden that you will probably be thrown safely clear.


...and consider a drag sock to clip to the forestay bridle and throw in the water if you flip to keep the boat from accelerating away leaving you body surfing after a capsize.


Jake Kohl
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259283
05/02/13 08:30 AM
05/02/13 08:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 381
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
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SE MI / NE IN
Should be an interesting thread. In big wind its one of the toughest points of sail for me as well. I shreaded the top half of mainsail last fall under similar circumstances. Its exhilarating but can be scary as hell.

I like your thought about sheeting-out putting the nail in the coffin. I think I remember some similar discussion after the AC72 went over.


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259289
05/02/13 11:29 AM
05/02/13 11:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 330
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srm Offline
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It would be awesome if the jib reach (close reach) was brought back to the racing format for say windspeeds averaging over 18 or so knots. The reach was done away with due to the "parade" effect, which is totally valid in light winds, but when it's blowin' there is definitely a skill/cajones factor that makes this a valid point of sail on the race course.

sm

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: srm] #259293
05/02/13 12:42 PM
05/02/13 12:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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perhaps a related question. If you do stuff the bows, should you pretty much just give up and consider a safe exit, or is there some technique that could actually save the boat at that point...

Say, a stuff in the back of a wave during your windward mark turndown...?


Jay

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259294
05/02/13 12:48 PM
05/02/13 12:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
I always found the most challenging point of sail to be jib reaching in strong winds. We proved this extensively yesterday with klaxons ablaze and an epic righting sequence where we both ended up under the boat clinging to the dolphin striker with both hands while the boat happily reached off with uncleated main but cleated jib. Quite an experience that one. No more salty seafood food for me the rest of the week, I have had my fill!

We sailed with the main traveller out and main sheeted reasonably. Mast was fully rotated and some downhaul. I released the main after we stuffed and I had to hold on to the rear beam to try to save it but I believe sheeting out doomed us as the apparent moved aft. Jib was sheeted off a bit but still not enough to fly properly.
Boat is set up for upwind/downwind with not enough sheet to sheet the jib out properly for this course. Waves was short and steep. Wind in the region of 20knots with fairly more in the gusts.

When transitioning from upwind to downwind we always have to pass through jib reaching and reaching before the spi can be set.

* Now, what are the latest tricks on an Infusion to avoid going down while jib reaching?

* Any new tips for how to handle the transitions?

*How the heck do you re-enter an Infusion with style from the water with all the rounded surfaces and nothing solid to hold on to. Our re-entry yesterday was.. interesting and left both of us with lactic acid sprouting from our ears.


I don't have more tips other than what Jake posted. Basically you have to stay ahead of the boat and it's tough when it's breezy. We wiped out hard due to rudder stall on the N20 Sunday so make sure your rudder setup is correct and your springs fresh.

As to avoiding a wipeout, at some point you have to drive down. My scariest moment last year was wire reaching with spin up on a F16, solo, and having to reach to gain ground to avoid rocks while driving down to douse the spinnaker. Fortunately I kept the boat upright and well clear of the impending doom.

As to getting back on, I always climb on board from the front beam. So far I've kept the Infusion upright so we'll see, that might get tougher as the front beam is a little higher than on the 20. Climbing on from the side is a no-no, that is how trap hooks punch the side of the hull. Don't ask me how I know that.


Scorpion F18
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259298
05/02/13 02:30 PM
05/02/13 02:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
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orphan Offline
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Daytona Beach Florida
Mast fully rotated? some downhaul? I always thought you would decrease the rotation and be full on for the down haul to decease Depth(power) and open up the top of the sail.

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: samc99us] #259300
05/02/13 02:34 PM
05/02/13 02:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
I can't make it over the front beam of the Infusion and the minute the boat starts to accelerate, you're never going to make it. There's too much to get tangled in there too (jib). I go for a quick duck under the hull and pull myself up with a trap line feet first (grab trap, throw my feet on the deck, and pull up).


Jake Kohl
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259301
05/02/13 03:20 PM
05/02/13 03:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 402
Punta Gorda, FL
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jkkartz1 Offline
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So boat design has not improved since the Hobie 16.

At least it is easy to reboard.

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259305
05/02/13 04:11 PM
05/02/13 04:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Beam reaching is one of my favorite points of sail since you really have to be on your toes the whole time smile
Lots of downhaul, both travelers well out, double trapped, and raised boards depending on how much wind there is.
Just be glad you are on an Infusion instead of a Cap or a Wildcat smile

Getting onboard is not that hard.
You grab the trapeze that enters the frontbeam with both hands, put your leg on the hull and pull yourself up.

Have you installed a righting line "triangle" yet?
We have slid a 5mm line (with a knot at each end) into both sides of the front beam groove, it is held tight by some bungy so it doesnt drag in the water while sailing.


Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Tony_F18] #259307
05/02/13 09:45 PM
05/02/13 09:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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need more info on that "righting triangle"...sounds interesting...not familiar with it.


Jake Kohl
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259312
05/03/13 05:47 AM
05/03/13 05:47 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
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West coast of Norway
Jib reaching double trapped.. the horror!

That advice reminds me a lot of some advice I recieved when I started snowboarding. "Put most of your weight on the front leg Rolf, to get a good bite in the snow".. The result was spectuacular to say the least. Board standing vertically stuck in the snow, vibrating with a deep hum, with me 10 meters below it. Total separation from the board.

I must admit I recoil at the tought of double trapping in those conditions. How can that not end with a double Peter Pan. We probably weight in at a hefty 200kg when dressed up for arctic sailing this time of year and the chop/waves was nasty.. Well, the next time we have those conditions I'll motivate Frode to have a go at it. If we are able to type afterwards I will report back wink

Jake:
When diving under the hull after righting, do you have a special technique for that? Foot against the daggerboard or someting?
Doing this fast, before the boat starts to move have to be imperative?
Do you use a drag chute yourself? (if you answer yes to the last question, there will be follow up questions on type, rigging, deployment and retrieval wink )

Tony:
I was unable to reach the trapeze from what I remember. Do you go for the bungee while holding on to the mainbeam?
Righting triangle? A 5mm line going from the hull/mainbeam intersection tightened by a bungee to the rearbeam which is used for righting?

One last question. When I decied it was time to do the geromino move I pushed off to get clear of the boom and mainsail. After resurfacing I had to swim a couple of quick strokes to catch up with the boat again. With the Tornado it was easy to grap the lines holding the trampoline to the hulls. With the Infusion there is just nothing to hold on to and I had to risk swimming to the daggerboard and re-enter by grasping the mainbeam. Any tips there as well on how to hold on to the boat?


Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259315
05/03/13 06:47 AM
05/03/13 06:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

Jake:
When diving under the hull after righting, do you have a special technique for that? Foot against the daggerboard or someting?
Doing this fast, before the boat starts to move have to be imperative?
Do you use a drag chute yourself? (if you answer yes to the last question, there will be follow up questions on type, rigging, deployment and retrieval wink )

...

One last question. When I decied it was time to do the geromino move I pushed off to get clear of the boom and mainsail. After resurfacing I had to swim a couple of quick strokes to catch up with the boat again. With the Tornado it was easy to grap the lines holding the trampoline to the hulls. With the Infusion there is just nothing to hold on to and I had to risk swimming to the daggerboard and re-enter by grasping the mainbeam. Any tips there as well on how to hold on to the boat?



Not much technique - but I do make an effort to make sure I'm not tangled in anything before and try to get a foot on the daggerboard as I go under.

I came up with the drag chute idea a couple of years ago (I'm sure it's been done before that)....but I've never needed to use it. I had a pouch sewn into the bottom of my trampoline that stores a small chute. It has a piece of line and two cheap , different colored, aluminum carabiners. The carabiners are clipped through a grommet in the opening of the pouch to make sure they're accessible. Carbiner 1, which has the end of the line tied to it, gets clipped to the dolphin striker post. Carbiner 2, which just has the line flowing through it, gets clipped to the forstay bridle. Then throw the chute in the water. Clipping it to the dolphin striker should enable you to pull it up out of the water and let it dangle at the forestay if you need to do something else quickly (like go pick up your skipper that jumped of the back).

If you are jumping off the back, I imagine you were on the trapeze - either keep your trapeze ring with you or hold fast to the mainsheet and use that to stay connected to the boat.


Jake Kohl
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Jake] #259320
05/03/13 07:42 AM
05/03/13 07:42 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
need more info on that "righting triangle"...sounds interesting...not familiar with it.


Jake see the top picture here for a photo: http://www.microwindracing.com/boat.html

I'm still not sure where the ends of this tie into the front beam? Do they get compressed between the beam and the hull, i.e remove the beam to install, or are you tying to the dolphin striker-beam connection? Also I'm not familiar with how it's actually used, I guess just yank but that looses you a foot of righting moment compared with going over the top of the hull...might be fine for you >150kg boys but we're down at 138kg so need everything we can get to pull that beefy Infusion mast free.

Speak of pulling free, how do ya'll right the boat with the spinnaker up in a race situation? I.e if you wipeout downwind I've seen guys get the boat back upright without stuffing the chute back in the tube. I've never managed to get upright without stuffing the chute back in the tube, a time consuming process.

Thanks a bunch for the trap line trick to get back on the boat will give that a go next time we're upside down.

Last edited by samc99us; 05/03/13 07:42 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: samc99us] #259321
05/03/13 07:49 AM
05/03/13 07:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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ahh...I thought he was talking about something used to climb back on the boat. My a-cat was rigged that way with the righting line...never really thought about rigging one up on the F18.


Jake Kohl
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: samc99us] #259322
05/03/13 07:57 AM
05/03/13 07:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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Quote
that looses you a foot of righting moment compared with going over the top of the hull.


OH NO!!!!
Not again!!

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: David Parker] #259323
05/03/13 08:18 AM
05/03/13 08:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by David Parker
Quote
that looses you a foot of righting moment compared with going over the top of the hull.


OH NO!!!!
Not again!!


I missed that...and another opportunity to use Stank's breasty modification of my moment diagram...I gotta find that.

You don't lose any righting moment with the line there. You, the line, the boat are one fixed assembly in the righting moment equation. You can attach the line to the mast base and still get the same righting moment if you can get your body in the same position as with the line over the hull....the lower the rope attachment point, the harder it is to hold on to but it won't affect the physics required to get the boat back to pointy side up.


Jake Kohl
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: David Parker] #259324
05/03/13 08:19 AM
05/03/13 08:19 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Must have missed that thread. Probably doesn't matter one bit where the righting line attaches. Much more concerned with the other questions I asked...


Scorpion F18
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Jake] #259325
05/03/13 08:26 AM
05/03/13 08:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
aha! found it...

from this thread

[Linked Image]



Jake Kohl
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: samc99us] #259326
05/03/13 08:29 AM
05/03/13 08:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by Jake
need more info on that "righting triangle"...sounds interesting...not familiar with it.


Jake see the top picture here for a photo: http://www.microwindracing.com/boat.html

I'm still not sure where the ends of this tie into the front beam? Do they get compressed between the beam and the hull, i.e remove the beam to install, or are you tying to the dolphin striker-beam connection? Also I'm not familiar with how it's actually used, I guess just yank but that looses you a foot of righting moment compared with going over the top of the hull...might be fine for you >150kg boys but we're down at 138kg so need everything we can get to pull that beefy Infusion mast free.

Speak of pulling free, how do ya'll right the boat with the spinnaker up in a race situation? I.e if you wipeout downwind I've seen guys get the boat back upright without stuffing the chute back in the tube. I've never managed to get upright without stuffing the chute back in the tube, a time consuming process.

Thanks a bunch for the trap line trick to get back on the boat will give that a go next time we're upside down.


My a-cat just had eye straps riveted under the beam and the line passed through those with a big knot on the end. To right the boat, you grab the knot at the top of the beam and pull the line through the eye strap until it bottoms out on the other eye strap on the other (now the lower side) of the beam.

I haven't been able to right the boat with the kite out either - I usually uncleat it and pull the dousing line where it's accessible on the bottom of the tramp to just get the ball of the spinnaker at the hoop.


Jake Kohl
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