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Tybee 500, OBX 500, and Atlantic 1000 #25993
11/13/03 10:53 AM
11/13/03 10:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline OP
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mikekrantz  Offline OP
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BEACH CATS MARATHONS
The Tybee Island Sailing Association, organizers of the successful Tybee
500 that debuted last May, has teamed up with the Outer Banks Catamaran
Club to produce two back-to-back five-hundred-mile races starting next
year. The contests will form a new 1000-mile annual challenge called the
Atlantic 1000. According to race organizers, these two events the Tybee 500
and the Outer Banks 500 will culminate in a third award honoring the
sailors with the best combined time for both.

Race registration will begin on January 1, 2004, with surf sailors given
the choice of entering either or both events. The Tybee 500 will run the
same course as last year from Islamorada, Florida, to Tybee Island,
Georgia, May 10-15. The Outer Banks 500 will start on May 17th where the
Tybee leaves off, ending at Kill Devil Hills, North Carolina, on May 22nd.
Each race will have five mandatory checkpoints between start and finish

Classes will consist of 18- and 20-foot production catamarans, factory
spinnaker-rigged with beams of no more than 8.5 feet, including Inter 20,
Nacra 6.0, Hobie 20, and the NAF 18. Website addresses are:
www.tybee500.com, www.obx500.com, www.atlantic1000.com. - Diana Prentice


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tybee 500, OBX 500, and Atlantic 1000 [Re: mikekrantz] #25994
11/13/03 12:04 PM
11/13/03 12:04 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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Nice!

Anyone need crew for the OBX 500?
JAKE?!

I know the territorial waters.

Re: yeessss [Re: mikekrantz] #25995
11/13/03 12:57 PM
11/13/03 12:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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MI

Mike and all ,-thanks so much ,-let me know how to help out , There may be 3 teams from Mich entering rumors have it .

Carl

Re: Tybee 500, OBX 500, and Atlantic 1000 [Re: MauganN20] #25996
11/13/03 01:51 PM
11/13/03 01:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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tempting....verrry tempting....

This is an awesome development!


Jake Kohl
Yesss Indeed ! Great move guys. [Re: mikekrantz] #25997
11/13/03 01:51 PM
11/13/03 01:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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North-West Europe



Yesss Indeed ! Great move guys. Open bring what you got and formula. Okay only 18 and 20 footers with spi, no problem that is what you want on these legs anyay. Sorry to see no tornado's being allowed but then again there aren't that many in the US to begin with.

I can't wait to see what is going to happen in the F18 class. Hobie is bound to send some of their top sailors. I'm thinking Booth or Bundock (Colby stopped this year) in addition to some of the hot shot US tiger sailors; this means Nacra can be seen to do nothing and so I'm thinking Strubble on a Nacra F18 ? Maybe Robbie Daniels (he has been seen to sail a variaty of designs lately) ? Who will land Ogletree ? Loos is getting older but I spoke to him just a few weeks ago and he'll be happy to do this race on a Tiger; he likes the race.

Yes we will have a real race on our hand next year; maybe make it an international one. Wouldn't that be great.

Ain't no major budget but are still a heck of a sailor. Get that old nacra 5.5 out of the barn ; Fit is with a spinnaker and high aspected jib and demand a F18 measurement. Then your in !

Hell you can even do it on a mofied Hobie 18 and if all legs are mainly downwind sailing than I would not say no to modifying an old P18 with a larger main and nice 21 sq. mtr. spi. I know from experience that this baby can rock downwind. You loose upwind but with a straight mast and full main ....

Darn, I misread the post only factory spi equipped boats. Humm, anyway still will have the Tiger against Nacra's Good enough for me to lust over.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Yesss Indeed ! Great move guys. [Re: Wouter] #25998
11/13/03 01:54 PM
11/13/03 01:54 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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Yeah I was hoping to see tornados allowed

ahh shucks.

Contact Information [Re: MauganN20] #25999
11/13/03 02:15 PM
11/13/03 02:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 70
Outer Banks, NC
OBXCC Offline
journeyman
OBXCC  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 70
Outer Banks, NC
The Tybee Island Sailing Association and the OBXCC are excited about putting on the Atlantic 1000 this Spring. The websites are under construction or have not been updated yet and we will post on this forum when they are. The best thing people can do to help is to get out there sail, get some sponsors and enter the race(s). The key to the success of this race in the first year will be PARTICIPATION!! Until the websites are up you can direct questions, concerns etc to Jon Britt (jon@norbanks.com) and Charles Thuman (cthuman@earthlink.net) and contact info for the Tybee 500 can be found at tybee500.com.

OBXCC

Re: Tybee 500, OBX 500, and Atlantic 1000 [Re: mikekrantz] #26000
11/14/03 10:25 AM
11/14/03 10:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 20
Southern California
goncnyl Offline
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goncnyl  Offline
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Southern California
Do we get to sail the entire coast in the daytime or are there going to be some night legs. I would like to see that part of the race during the day since I never have.

Jim Korkosz

Re: Tybee 500, OBX 500, and Atlantic 1000 [Re: mikekrantz] #26001
11/15/03 07:02 PM
11/15/03 07:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mike

After reading the news release it stated >>Classes will consist of 18- and 20-foot production catamarans, factory spinnaker-rigged with beams of no more than 8.5 feet, including Inter 20, Nacra 6.0, Hobie 20,
and the NAF 18s.

We have a different race scoring theme with the Formula 18 class including all F-18s . Tigers --N-F18 -Mystere ,-Storm ,-Ventilo ,-etc in 04.

With production 20s we have potentially numerous existing production 8.5 beam 20 ft category cats available --Nacra 6/0 in different rig configurations --The N A 6/0 --Express ,-NE W SPIN --Original 6/0 ,-there are some with 350 spin and 270 spin sizes.
,-There is a dart 20 --a G Cat 20 --an Arc 20 ,--Hobie-20 -Mystere 6/0 --P-19 MX --INTER 20 -H FOX 20 --and listed is Formula 20 .
Also it was reported a new lightweight 20 will be out specifically designed with this race in mind though 100 Lbs lighter with more sail area in main and spin .


The Formula 18 class will require a seperate earlier start . Formula 18 relies on a basic Formula of equal Length beam weight and sail area of a targeted max.
Basic specs. covering more minor design details and basic max sail pattern size are covered in formula rules as well.

In the interest of fair equal sailing for the 20s racing 1000 miles it seems some similar basic equal rules specifying the basics are needed , just as has worked so well for Formula 18s. The basics of Length 20 -Beam 8.5 -Weight and max. sail area in main jib and spin for racing all 20s . These are outlined on the F-20 forum
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

One problem establishing the F-20 for the US was and IS the Inter 20 being built with 15 more sq ft in the main and lighter weight at 390 than internation F-20 RULES .
Another has been the existing N-6/0 that is within 7 sq ft of equal main and jib area of the I-20, but has adopted a 348 sq ft spin as compensation for its added boat weight and older rig and sail plan which seems fine .
Dispensation is given older original boats and it seems the N -6/0 is equivilant to the I-20 ,--If not then 6/0 sailors should address this and add modifications to equalize its speed potental.

By using the current I-20 as 20 class model of sail area -weight Length and beam we can accomplish a Formula Class for 20s.
In the interest of safety we should allow modifications like reefable mainsails and a change to stronger boards rudders ,along with any other modification within rules sailors wish to make particularly for this extreme type of ocean racing.

The alternative is to rely on the current handicap ratings , --this applied to a 1000 mile predominantly downwind race w spin that this handicap system is not based on or ever intended for .
-It is unsure how windspeeds are applied in 100 plus mile legs with several weather patterns encountered of different direction and strengths .
The dpn handicap rating numbers of the 20s listed vary greatly from 72 to 59.5-interestingly the Inter 20 rates 59.5 -the H-Fox 60.3 and they have a Formula 20 listing as 59,5 this would include any number of existing EU 20s --The Fox is actually the iF-20 in the US .

The Dart has a 72 ,It seems any could take an older cat design of several listed with very {different} rating and add a new spin and create a handicap rule beater.

The new boat at 100 Lbs less and more sail area will not have any basis for a handicap number. It should be on average % faster , but why race 1000 miles on very different weights and sail area boats?

Another example -The Arc 20 from the factory has a 61.5 -yet has larger mainsail jib and 70 sq ft larger spin at the same weight,----why would any realistically give this boat design a handicap time advantage over boats with lesser sail area ?

Boats in the 20 ft category could also race by seperate brand classes as per 03 ,but why ? Also this leaves several potential 20 boats with no class to race within ,-
The brand only mentality .

We need to get Hobie sailors racing in these events ,-not exclude any .

The ideal solution is to establish basic Length beam max. sail areas and weights in Formula that allows a variety of boats to race together as a class.

If this is established teams can then plan and build towards this with added safety features built in as well.
The new lighter boat could be built to equal sail area and use corrector weight .

The Arc could be ordered to equal sail areas and within pattern area per 20 rules .

Like several potential teams entering the Atlantic 1000 in the market for a new 20 -we are wondering what the exact rules are .

Should they purchase a new lighter boat with more sail area and leave the rest behind each day ,-
Should some purchase the Arc with larger sail area and be given handicap time advantage to boot .

The ideal seems to lead one logically to solve the numerous problems now and for future 1000 mile races to a Formula 20 class that allows all types of 20 ft 8,5 beam cat designs and their teams that sail them to race equally .
Just as the Formula 18s the same basics of length beam weight and sail area boats in class.
-


Last edited by sail6000; 11/15/03 08:12 PM.
Re: Tybee 500, OBX 500, and Atlantic 1000 [Re: sail6000] #26002
11/16/03 10:35 PM
11/16/03 10:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 84
ms/fl
fuzzy Offline
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fuzzy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 84
ms/fl
wow...with all the variables to consider..I hope the race does not turn into a quiagmire................but an open run what ya brung, just might be the ticket,,just my thoughts.tr


A-class #19
Re: Tybee 500, OBX 500, and Atlantic 1000 [Re: sail6000] #26003
11/16/03 10:55 PM
11/16/03 10:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
You wrote
The ideal seems to lead one logically to solve the numerous problems now and for future 1000 mile races to a Formula 20 class that allows all types of 20 ft 8,5 beam cat designs and their teams that sail them to race equally .
Just as the Formula 18s the same basics of length beam weight and sail area boats in class.

Well the devil is in the details. The F18 rule was carefully thought out and for the most part, boats were specially designed to be optimzed under the F18 rule. All of the existing 18 footers were made obsolete by the rapid acceptance of the rule.

The pragmatic solution is simply to take the US spec'ed I20 and declare that this is the formulae. However, in practical terms this means that sailors on other platforms would not be able to measure in AND compete on a level playing field. For instance, the N6.0 would have to down size its chute to measure in or use the I20 rig on a 6.0 platform.

What race is the most important to the sailors.
Elapsed time.
One design finish.
Handicap finish.

It probably depends on the sailor and their goals...You won't have one winner in the current format.

Take Care
Mark






crac.sailregattas.com
Re- correction [Re: Mark Schneider] #26004
11/17/03 10:32 AM
11/17/03 10:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mark
I,d like to see an {open class} in future years for the 1000 mile race .

Had a rough year ,-an injury kept me from racing ,-so I,m really looking forward to getting back and racing the 1000 miles again , starting to work-out, looking for a crew and gr crew ,-do have a sponsor again ,-its great fun to put one of these together though alot of planning and prep. goes into it.This will be my 8th.

On the rules aspect for these 1000 mile races a class has been the history , but think the Formula class concept works evan better.

The dispensation rule Formula classes use include ALL similar existing boats just as they are --like the N-6/0 NE spin as example.

.THE f-18 RULE WORKS VERY WELL it is yet to be seen if an older existing 18 design with updated same sailplan or the option of dispensation of larger spin on existing could compete with the Tiger or N-F-18 .
A Hobie 18 w spin was sailed very successfully in previous W-1000 TO A GREAT TIME AND FINISH.

Here are basic F-20 rules outline ,--
The specalized requirements teams need to make to boats with Safety considerations in mind for this type of more extreme ocean racing alone make this rule adaptation worth implimenting .
If your out in huge seas miles offshore sometimes at night racing, your sailing craft is all you have, it gives one a very different perspective as to boat preparation and set up .
Sail pattern and outline are defined per class model -
this simplifies things greatly . Additional rules on more specific minor modification can be added if desired .-
A review of the other existing Formula rules provides the rules example and definitions in areas of concern .

Most all understand what a formula rule is and its intent -
-
FORMULA 20 CATAMARAN CLASS

For people of good will to race together for the enjoyment of the sport in accordance with the Racing Rules of Sailing and in the spirit of rule #2 of fair sailing under ISAF rules –To compete within recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play.

Intent -.
To race 20-ft catamarans by numerous builders of various design features that will encourage development and better safer craft as a class on a first across the finish line wins basis in buoys and distance racing.

Amendments—We wish to keep rules as simple as possible and rely on good intent of sailors in accordance with standard safety requirements per sailing rules and required gear and class principles as stated.
Future rule additions definitions and amendments per majority vote of active class members.
The -F-20 Committee will propose amendments to the rule if necessary. Amendments shall be placed on one year’s notice unless it is considered essential to act immediately to prohibit an unseaworthy feature. Formula 20 boats will often be sailed in EXTREME type distance racing events and all components are to be constructed accordingly and sailed extensively in varied conditions before competing.

Basic specifications - FORMULA 20 C C .

LENGTH –20 ft one inch max. —Stern to bow meas.
BEAM - 8.5 ft –max.hull point meas.
WEIGHT –two categories of boat wgt. –380 Lb. and above
-410 Lb. and above
-Definition boat weights –boat sails and all att gear fully rigged
Boats may add permanently fixed gear and floatation to meet min.
Corrector weights will also be allowed for boats under 380lb. total.
SAIL AREA –two corresponding categories
380 min boat wgt –MAINSAIL =210 sq. ft inc. mast --53 sq. ft jib +270 sq. ft spin, max.
410 min.boat weight MAINSAIL =210 sq. ft – 60 sq. ft jib + 300 sq. ft spin. Max.
Increases of 7-sq. ft. in jib and 30 sq. ft in spin area in 30-LB boat wgt differential.

Sail area may be traded off from main to jib of equal sq. ft to allow modification and design variation of sail plan to any max. S A combination of smaller main in category
All measurements per standard current ISAF measurement rules, --see diagrams and instruction.

-Roller furlers and main reef points may be used. -
-All teams to use the same set of sails for a regatta or distance race, but may be replaced if severely damaged to allow a team to continue racing with the permission of race organizers per event racing instructions.

Sailmakers and owners to list sq. ft in 2 inch numerals at the tack of each sail next to the sailmakers logo with signature over.
All sails are to be commercially available to any and all sailing teams min one month before an event or sails may not be used for that event
-. Existing class catamaran designs will be accepted as listed per mfg. or sailmaker. -Racing will be on the honor system, but any boat may be challenged and checked along with the protesting party also being checked for weight and sail area compliance. Mainsails must be within the pattern outline of the current I-20 sails . Mast height is limited to 32 ft , added main area of equal sq ft may be added below the boom area .Those not in compliance will be DSQ for those races.

CREW -
-CREW WEIGHT –-A class min of 320 Lb., crews may carry corrector weights attached to boat to meet min.
Wgt based on teams wearing standard swim apparel and shirt.

-MASTS –May be of alum. and/or carbon fiber or combinations of non conducting materials in standard section tapered or uniform and a Max 32 ft length. With-standard wire rigging in any configuration.

-HULLS -BOARDS and RUDDERS–Of any standard material or configuration.

SPIN POLES –any length may be used made of any material in standard configuration with snuffer configuration of any type. Improvements to spin systems and hardware placement and coresponding design improvements and developments are permitted.

Dispensation -
Older existing designs may be given dispensation per F-20 committee by owners request in design feature trade offs -
example = an existing heavier mast rig and standard class smaller mainsail in compensation for larger spin area, again only applied to older existing designs --The current NA Nacra 6/0 with heavier boat weight and mast rigging and sailplan compensations of 348 sq ft spin as example.
contact O F 20 committee --crdesign@cac.net

-
CLASS EMBLEM

The starboard side of the mainsail MAY carry the -Formula-20 CC logo of racing Formula 20s along with individual sail number for scoring purposes.

What would the pro's choose [Re: sail6000] #26005
11/17/03 10:41 AM
11/17/03 10:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Carl

Take the I20 and the NE Nacra 6.0... which boat would the pro's choose to win the elapsed time trophy?

If those sailors put 1/2 the money on each boat then I would agree that the grandfather formula is percieved as fair.

Otherwise, I think you have an uneven playing field and additional tweaks are needed. In this game, perception of which is faster will be reality because the pro's will lead the pack.

Take Care
Mark



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Atlantic 1000 [Re: Mark Schneider] #26006
11/17/03 11:55 AM
11/17/03 11:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI

HI Mark

No pros race that I know of .

Last years winning team could race a 6/0 or an I-20 and win again as could several teams familiar with both boats ,--they do [RATE] within one point of each other ,-If we used ISAF or Texel the 6/0 would rate about equal as well.

Rumors have it a past Natl. champ 6/0 sailor will race again , with their experience in the race and skills they will often finish in or very near the lead each leg .
The race is very much a test of all aspects of sailing including navagation ,tactics ,strategy ,boat prep, seamanship and endurance ,-plus basic sailing racing skill.

I hope we see a good variety of teams on 18s and also 20s that enter and wish to showcase their particular boat as being seaworthy and fast in this most extreme challange of 1000 miles of ocean racing over 10 days.
I hope we see some of the international teams returning and some new ones as well.
There are a number of excellent 20s potentially to be refined and raced . This brings teams -sponsors -boat mfg. more media and interest and partisipation into the sport .

The Formula 18 class is very supportive of the race ,-think Nacra and Hobie will take a keen interest in it and wish to be well represented. Similarly numerous other boat mfg and dealers have this opportunity to showcase their boats potential.

26 teams with gr crews support teams sponsors ,and media covered partisipated entered and raced the Tybee last year ,
Hope we see 50 this year.
Its a great race and fantastic experience if you love ocean racing on high speed catamarans or want to be part of the event as gr crew or with a team or race organization .


Re: Atlantic 1000 [Re: sail6000] #26007
11/17/03 07:39 PM
11/17/03 07:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Carl

under Texel, the Nacra 6.o with NE chute owes time to an I20. under portsmouth it recieves time from an I20. Both can't be right and something is fundamentally unfair here.

However, I agree that a buoys race is not a 100 mile distance leg.... So, I suggest that you call it the atlantic 1000 rating and call the boats even...

If you assume that the existing 20 footers on the list (hobie, mystere, supercat, Gcat, Inter and Nacra) are about the same power to weight ratio with all chutes under 350 square feet .... again you might agree that they are rated about even. thus a Atlantic 1000 level rated class.

What do you do with the launch of the new boat which is suposedly 100 lbs lighter even though it's 8 and 1/2 feet wide? Run an open class of one or not allow him to race at all just like the Tornado, and Arc 22 and M20's and exclude them.

my suggestion is F18 class (internationaly recognized class)

Open class for Tornado's, Supercat 22's, M20's F18HT's Taipan 5.7;s and the proposed Light 20 footer and anyone else that doesn't fit into the other two class stuctures. Pick a rating system or average several rating systems for this class.

Atlantic 1000 class for 20 foot by 8 and half foot wide 400 lb +/- or so boats.

Who actually sailed a better race among the three class winners would make for a great bar room conversation and could never be resolved....(which is a perfect solution)

What do you think.

Take Care
Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Atlantic 1000 [Re: Mark Schneider] #26008
11/17/03 08:22 PM
11/17/03 08:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
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Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mark

Looks like your on the right track

Hope we see a number of F-18s --and again they need a seperate start and class scoring ,-maye an hour earlier each leg leaving the beach at 9 generally finishing the same approx. time that way. The F-18s may also finish head some legs being more optimized for higher winds particularly upwind . It will surprize some .

A Formula class of existing and available 20s
with the same or similar L B weight and sail area in Formula racing together should be great fun .

It is the best way to include numerous similar brand classes yet race as a class.

gotta head for home ,then take the boys to the gym to swim and get a workout ,--use a rope on a rowing machine to simulate cranking a traveler or spin sheet in and out for 100 mile legs ,--now we just need someone to through buckets of seawater in my face and suspend a trap hook from the ceiling to get the full effect .

oh ya --for any interested --
sent the basic race info and link to the Atlantic 1000 news release to Ron at the UK Catsailor website -
http://www.catamaran.co.uk/

Nice to see they have active Formula 18 and Formula 20 racing and hope to see a number of international teams in the race from all over ,-Hope Wout and others will send the news release out to other catsailing website in EU .

ALWAYS A FUN ASPECT OF THE 1000 MILE RACES .






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