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Re: Nacra 17's [Re: David Ingram] #260060
06/06/13 10:26 AM
06/06/13 10:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
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Dave and all,

Since I was the race officer for the 2008 NAs in Pensacola I have admired the class. Do not get me wrong - the F 18 Class is the top of the pyramid for HP Class catamaran racing in the USA and will remain there for quit some time.

How could I down the F 18 following you and Laura's great performance against the C2 and the N 17s last weekend?

I have also ridden the NACRA train long enough to know what their definition is of 'SMOD.'

The new NACRA 17 will slowly join club - level starting lines in a couple years, and F 18/F 16 loyalists will remain devoted because of the many friendships developed in those classes over the years.

The Rice family will probably have the F 16 until the government outlaws public sailing for safety reasons :-)

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: BadLatitude1337] #260061
06/06/13 10:28 AM
06/06/13 10:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


Jake Kohl
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: mini] #260062
06/06/13 10:29 AM
06/06/13 10:29 AM
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Tony_F18 Offline
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Originally Posted by mini
I heard some reports from a couple of teams who went to the Olympic training camp in Miami. A few youth teams on F16 went and sailed with some of the Olympic 17 teams. While the boat is new and there was not a lot of head to head time, the 16s appeared faster or at least as fast, especially downwind in the conditions where they were lining up together.

I highly doubt that, from what I saw the N17s are very fast downwind especially in light to moderate conditions (which I'm guessing Miami has).

Re: Nacra 17's [Re: catandahalf] #260063
06/06/13 10:30 AM
06/06/13 10:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Like some others said, the N17 fits it's calling pretty well; Mixed, lightweight teams looking toward the Olympics. Several will trickle into the regular sailing circles, which is fine...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well. I don't see it encroaching much at all into either one of those classes.


Jake Kohl
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: Jake] #260065
06/06/13 11:02 AM
06/06/13 11:02 AM
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Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Like some others said, the N17 fits it's calling pretty well; Mixed, lightweight teams looking toward the Olympics. Several will trickle into the regular sailing circles, which is fine...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well. I don't see it encroaching much at all into either one of those classes.


Have you asked your Nacra dealer how many new F18s he has sold compared to N17s?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: Jake] #260066
06/06/13 11:15 AM
06/06/13 11:15 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike

Re: Nacra 17's [Re: David Ingram] #260067
06/06/13 11:16 AM
06/06/13 11:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Ah... ignorance is still blissful after all of these years.

So.... you have a SINGLE FORMULA... The formula describes a non linear curve... the paramaters in the SINGLE formula match up to boat measurements (sail area, all up weight, etc etc etc). Plug in your boats measurements and you get your rating.

The question is how accurate is your class's rating (F18) relative to (F16) or the curvey board( N17)'s AND the rest of the catamaran classes...

Quote
but the calculation is manipulated by people to try and make the output correction factor match what is happening at events. In other words, the calulator is just BS covering up peoples manipulation of the system and has no more relavance than Portsmouth or any other system.


Ah... the words MANIPULATED (oooo... bad word) to MATCH THE REAL WORLD.... Try using the more neutral and accurate word "Fit the parmaters" to match the real world.

In other words..... BS ..... NOPE.... This is just your twisted characterization.
Quote


Has no more relevance then Portsmouth or any other system.

Really... how dense can you be..

The Portsmouth system generates A SINGLE Individual rating based on the top boat in the class between the top yardstick boats in the fleet.... It is proven to be easily skewed by a rock star who campaigns the boat... crushes the weekend warior and generates an innacurate rating.. IE his personal handicap rating versus the fleet... (See the F16 rating FUBAR (when no body raced the boat) ... or the P19MX rating when Randy designed and raced that rig from 20 years ago or the CFR20)

Texel and SCHRS generate a SINGLE FORMULA which generates an entirely new rating table adjusting all of the boats ratings to each other. Huge differences between the two mechanisms in how the table is generated.

Dave writes.
Quote
Handicap racing has it's place but it's NEVER going to have any real credablity.


I agree Handicap racing has it's place.

I have NO idea what "real credibility" means... If you win Texel... does that mean your win has marginal real credibility?

Handicap racing will never resolve sailing performance differences as well as one design racing. The NOISE in the actual racing and the accuracy and precision of the ratings table (SCHRS to PHRF to Portsmouth) limit the resolution. That is life... but we do agree ... Handicap racing has its place.

It is also true that the sound and fury over ratings is mostly BS... most Racing Results on the water have time differences that don't require more accuracy and precision from the handicap system. In other words... If you loose a race... the decimal point in your rating is not the issue. (Ask your scorekeeper to publish the BCR... the back calculated rating for your performance... IE what rating would you have needed to win that race).

So.... in 2013... the huge number of Dead Boat Society classes are now in landfills.... We KNOW that a 30 year old P19 cannot sail to its rating.. Fact of life these boats are not racing.

Handicap racing has its place in rating the active one design classes when they decide that more fun is had with more boats in the race... and handicap is the way to get that. So far, nobody forsees a N17 non olympic racing class forming...
SO... if you want those boats to play... you have to race F16's F18's N17s N20's and NCarbon20s against one another on handicap.

Quote
but it's NEVER going to have any real credablity.
From my point of view.. Credibility is not my concern...
Fun Factor is my concern and more boats on the line = More Fun....
ergo pick the most transparant handicap rating system available (SCHRS) and go sailing.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: BadLatitude1337] #260068
06/06/13 11:23 AM
06/06/13 11:23 AM
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brucat Offline
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Yes, more boats on the line equals more fun. Rating systems that the sailors don't trust take a lot of that fun away after the scores are posted. No one ever wants to admit that they went the wrong way, pinched too much or blew too many tacks when there's something much easier to blame: the rating/system.

The rise of OD/formula racing, at the expense of handicap racing is not unique to cats, or the Portsmouth system, and the reasons are the same.

Can we be done now?

Mike

Re: Nacra 17's [Re: brucat] #260069
06/06/13 11:32 AM
06/06/13 11:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake
Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike


Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.


Jake Kohl
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: BadLatitude1337] #260070
06/06/13 11:36 AM
06/06/13 11:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Bwahahahaha


I'm boatless.
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: brucat] #260071
06/06/13 11:41 AM
06/06/13 11:41 AM
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Posts: 141
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mini Offline
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mini  Offline
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Posts: 141
Mark,

How blind can you be?
Portsmouth was just open about how they worked the numbers. The schrs and texel just hide the politics behind a calculation.
It does not take any time at all to look at the calculation and see it flawed in its logic as almost every variable is inherently self limiting by nature. Then a little history on the changes continually made to it clearly show politics behind the scenes.

Re: Nacra 17's [Re: TEAMVMG] #260072
06/06/13 11:53 AM
06/06/13 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Don't have to check with the dealer... more N17's... duh! We've all been around long enough to pretty much know how this is going to play out. The big plus is more lady skippers.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: Jake] #260073
06/06/13 11:58 AM
06/06/13 11:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake
Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike


Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.


Now boys no need to get snarky, that's my job. Nobody's is making you look at the naked fat man it's you that can't seem to stop yourselves, which tells me you are both kinda into it.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: Jake] #260074
06/06/13 12:02 PM
06/06/13 12:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well.


Yeah, it doesn't have those gimbaled cup holders.


Jay

Re: Nacra 17's [Re: waterbug_wpb] #260075
06/06/13 12:07 PM
06/06/13 12:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well.


Yeah, it doesn't have those gimbaled cup holders.


Or a 4:1 traveler. I forget get nothing boatless boy.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: David Ingram] #260076
06/06/13 12:08 PM
06/06/13 12:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
and a 25:1 mainsheet for my delicate hands.


Jay

Re: Nacra 17's [Re: David Ingram] #260077
06/06/13 12:13 PM
06/06/13 12:13 PM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake
Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike


Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.


Now boys no need to get snarky, that's my job. Nobody's is making you look at the naked fat man it's you that can't seem to stop yourselves, which tells me you are both kinda into it.


Ding, I was with you right up until your conclusion. Could have done without that visual imagery as well. Going back to sticking my head in the sand, right after I get done hurling up lunch...

Mike

Re: Nacra 17's [Re: BadLatitude1337] #260079
06/06/13 12:50 PM
06/06/13 12:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
I'm actually really serious about actual numbers of F17's in the country. From my sources it is less than or equal to 30. I know how many were in Miami, and the same number of F18's exists at one sailing site in Florida. So again more b.s being spewed on the interwebs.

Finally all this SCHRS nonsense is B.S too. From what I've seen the rating system works as well as it possibly can. We were right next to a 2-up F16 in super light air on the Infusion Tuesday night and walked away downwind at very similar crew weights (within 10lbs or so). Guess what platform weight had nothing to do with actual performance on the race course. Only kills us after we're done sailing. The F18's rating lower than the F16's and equal to the A-Cat's seems very fair to me in actual racing environments; reality is they are all very closely rated and it's the sailors that matter. Distance racing is another matter, where the SCHRS and most handicup rating systems break down (i.e, if we were racing an A upwind for long periods of time it's game over).

Not sure what sex changes and checking your crews manscap have to do with either, but if that's your thing I'm not stopping you.

Last edited by samc99us; 06/06/13 12:52 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: samc99us] #260080
06/06/13 01:19 PM
06/06/13 01:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
I'm actually really serious about actual numbers of F17's in the country. From my sources it is less than or equal to 30. I know how many were in Miami, and the same number of F18's exists at one sailing site in Florida. So again more b.s being spewed on the interwebs.

Finally all this SCHRS nonsense is B.S too. From what I've seen the rating system works as well as it possibly can. We were right next to a 2-up F16 in super light air on the Infusion Tuesday night and walked away downwind at very similar crew weights (within 10lbs or so). Guess what platform weight had nothing to do with actual performance on the race course. Only kills us after we're done sailing. The F18's rating lower than the F16's and equal to the A-Cat's seems very fair to me in actual racing environments; reality is they are all very closely rated and it's the sailors that matter. Distance racing is another matter, where the SCHRS and most handicup rating systems break down (i.e, if we were racing an A upwind for long periods of time it's game over).

Not sure what sex changes and checking your crews manscap have to do with either, but if that's your thing I'm not stopping you.


No mention of the skill sets involved Sam that kinda has something to do with it. Also in super light(ghosting constidions) you know you can be right next someone and you can get something and they don't.

If you think you're going to walk away from a min weight Falcon running at 250 lbs of crew weight in the soft stuff and the team has the skills to make it go you are in denial. If platform weight doesn't matter why is a portion of the F16 class pushing to increase the min weight of the platform? Can you guess which portion?

Platform weight matters Sam, ask yourself do you want a heavy F18 or one that is close to or at min weight? Why did Jill deaply discount the heavy C2's? Weight doesn't matter and handicap racing works... they call that a twofer.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: David Ingram] #260081
06/06/13 01:39 PM
06/06/13 01:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Dave sure I would like a lighter boat but guess what we finished in front of a minimum weight Falcon F16 with less than 250 lbs of crew weight on board in the same race. They were 1-up though, maybe not a fair comparison. And yes it was a ghost race so not a very fair situation. We generally finish in front of him as long as we keep it upright. My SCHRS thoughts are based on a range of conditions and a range of sailors. Handicap racing is what it is, no ones favorite but you play the cards you're dealt.

I have no idea what my Infusion weighs, it could be light it could be heavy, nothing I can do about it now. The nut on the tiller matters first, 5lbs of extra platform weight isn't going to hurt you unless you are playing the game at the very very top. If you think otherwise you are just looking for an excuse.

Last edited by samc99us; 06/06/13 01:41 PM.

Scorpion F18
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