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Re: Nacra 17's [Re: BadLatitude1337] #260616
06/24/13 09:17 AM
06/24/13 09:17 AM
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Tony_F18 Offline
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Are they using them at the Worlds?

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Re: Nacra 17's [Re: BadLatitude1337] #260618
06/24/13 09:21 AM
06/24/13 09:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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I don't know, Tony - I just heard the teams were taking delivery at Worlds. I would NOT want to use one for the first time at Worlds (even if everyone else was, too) if all my training and events had been with the aluminum stick... surely it is going to behave differently...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD [Re: TEAMVMG] #260627
06/24/13 11:29 AM
06/24/13 11:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Paul,

I think your argument only works if you have a boat with a 10 year competitive life span stucturally.... Eg Marstron Tornado's...

Fiberglass boats go soft unless you design and build to delay this eventuality. eg lasers and most production cats are softer after three years...

IMO, the depreciation expected is indendent of the class be it SMOD, OD or formula.

I think the major argument for SMOD is that ... no matter what... the gear is about the same... AND you pay that premium for the perception of a level playing field and NOT because the boat hold's it value better.

In your comparison... IF the N17 fleet growth in numbers were so brillliant that boats were hard to come by... Yes, the depreciation would be less. I don't see that in the cards.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD [Re: TEAMVMG] #260629
06/24/13 11:43 AM
06/24/13 11:43 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Quote

You have contradicted yourself a bit there.

You complain that every boat has to be the same, down to the last shackle. then say that you are not a trust fund.

Lets say that you go out and buy a new F18 AND a new N17 today. They would both be expensive but able to compete at the front of the fleet.
In 3 years time you decide to get a boat with a cooker, beds and toilet so decide to sell your beach cat fleet. Which of the two boats will still be competitive? which will have depreciated more?
there will always be more F18s on the market because their front of the fleet time is less

the N17 costs more, but is better value for money


Lots of variables there, but I disagree with your market assessment. How can a used boat in a class that barely exists, caters to mixed teams (how many women vs. men sailors do you have at your club?) and has all the pitfalls of the Olympic cycle to contend with have higher resale value than the largest high performance beach cat fleet globally where older boats have proven competitive at the front of the fleet? Also, used boats in the N17 class are going to be run hard, and the target market cares about platform stiffness. I.e, who are you going to sell your used boat to?

Last edited by samc99us; 06/24/13 11:46 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: John Williams] #260631
06/24/13 11:56 AM
06/24/13 11:56 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
I don't know, Tony - I just heard the teams were taking delivery at Worlds. I would NOT want to use one for the first time at Worlds (even if everyone else was, too) if all my training and events had been with the aluminum stick... surely it is going to behave differently...


I'm not an expert here and agree with the premise of your argument but surely the carbon mast is going to be lighter, and Hall have properly optimized the section for the sail cut of the N17 Performance Sails...in which case the teams that get delivery of their sections at Worlds, have a day or 2 to train would surely be faster no?? Decreased pitching moment upwind...

My personal concern at such a high level event would be experiencing a breakage in a race with the new carbon stick. However, Hall has an excellent reputation overall and I'd be willing to put my point on the line if I knew the carbon stick was faster.

I guess the better question is how is Nacra/ISAF/class policing this?


Scorpion F18
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: samc99us] #260632
06/24/13 12:03 PM
06/24/13 12:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by John Williams
I don't know, Tony - I just heard the teams were taking delivery at Worlds. I would NOT want to use one for the first time at Worlds (even if everyone else was, too) if all my training and events had been with the aluminum stick... surely it is going to behave differently...


I'm not an expert here and agree with the premise of your argument but surely the carbon mast is going to be lighter, and Hall have properly optimized the section for the sail cut of the N17 Performance Sails...in which case the teams that get delivery of their sections at Worlds, have a day or 2 to train would surely be faster no?? Decreased pitching moment upwind...

My personal concern at such a high level event would be experiencing a breakage in a race with the new carbon stick. However, Hall has an excellent reputation overall and I'd be willing to put my point on the line if I knew the carbon stick was faster.

I guess the better question is how is Nacra/ISAF/class policing this?


Well...the carbon mast was the original mast but they had issues with them breaking. Nacra went to the aluminum mast as a temporary fix.


Jake Kohl
Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD [Re: samc99us] #260633
06/24/13 01:07 PM
06/24/13 01:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Quote

You have contradicted yourself a bit there.

You complain that every boat has to be the same, down to the last shackle. then say that you are not a trust fund.

Lets say that you go out and buy a new F18 AND a new N17 today. They would both be expensive but able to compete at the front of the fleet.
In 3 years time you decide to get a boat with a cooker, beds and toilet so decide to sell your beach cat fleet. Which of the two boats will still be competitive? which will have depreciated more?
there will always be more F18s on the market because their front of the fleet time is less

the N17 costs more, but is better value for money


Lots of variables there, but I disagree with your market assessment. How can a used boat in a class that barely exists, caters to mixed teams (how many women vs. men sailors do you have at your club?) and has all the pitfalls of the Olympic cycle to contend with have higher resale value than the largest high performance beach cat fleet globally where older boats have proven competitive at the front of the fleet? Also, used boats in the N17 class are going to be run hard, and the target market cares about platform stiffness. I.e, who are you going to sell your used boat to?


You don't have to be a mixed team to sail the N17 at club level. There are only about3 or 4 boats in each country that HAVE to be mixed. The market for this boat is going to open up.



Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD [Re: TEAMVMG] #260635
06/24/13 01:49 PM
06/24/13 01:49 PM
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Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Originally Posted by samc99us
Quote

You have contradicted yourself a bit there.

You complain that every boat has to be the same, down to the last shackle. then say that you are not a trust fund.

Lets say that you go out and buy a new F18 AND a new N17 today. They would both be expensive but able to compete at the front of the fleet.
In 3 years time you decide to get a boat with a cooker, beds and toilet so decide to sell your beach cat fleet. Which of the two boats will still be competitive? which will have depreciated more?
there will always be more F18s on the market because their front of the fleet time is less

the N17 costs more, but is better value for money


Lots of variables there, but I disagree with your market assessment. How can a used boat in a class that barely exists, caters to mixed teams (how many women vs. men sailors do you have at your club?) and has all the pitfalls of the Olympic cycle to contend with have higher resale value than the largest high performance beach cat fleet globally where older boats have proven competitive at the front of the fleet? Also, used boats in the N17 class are going to be run hard, and the target market cares about platform stiffness. I.e, who are you going to sell your used boat to?


You don't have to be a mixed team to sail the N17 at club level. There are only about3 or 4 boats in each country that HAVE to be mixed. The market for this boat is going to open up.



I think we are speaking from quite opposite vantage points. You have a lot more active beach cat classes in the U.K than in the U.S. At my local club level they're just now starting to see the F18 can in fact perform, but most everyone is racing a 10+ year old N20 save the A-Cat guys (who travel) and F16 sailors (who have newer boats because, well, it's a F16).

I would be the target market for a Nacra 17; more powered up than a F18, lighter (easier to move on beach), curved foils for foil assist in the nasty, suits our crew weight perfectly etc., looks like a blast to sail etc. I can't afford a $30K+ toy that brings marginal benefit over my boat and has no active fleet to speak of. Maybe I'm amongst the minority who is thinking 4 years from now I don't want to be stranded when Nacra dumps the N17 for the N17 MK. 2 full flying 10' wide beast.

Last edited by samc99us; 06/24/13 01:50 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD [Re: samc99us] #260636
06/24/13 03:35 PM
06/24/13 03:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Maybe I'm amongst the minority who is thinking 4 years from now I don't want to be stranded when Nacra dumps the N17 for the N17 MK. 2 full flying 10' wide beast.


I am to presume there is no "recreational sailing" quality to this boat, correct? I.E. you'd only sail this thing in races...?


Jay

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD [Re: BadLatitude1337] #260638
06/24/13 04:10 PM
06/24/13 04:10 PM
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Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
You can sail any boat you want for recreation Jay...


Scorpion F18
Re: Nacra 17's [Re: samc99us] #260640
06/24/13 05:41 PM
06/24/13 05:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Originally Posted by samc99us
I'm not an expert here and agree with the premise of your argument but surely the carbon mast is going to be lighter, and Hall have properly optimized the section for the sail cut of the N17 Performance Sails...in which case the teams that get delivery of their sections at Worlds, have a day or 2 to train would surely be faster no?? Decreased pitching moment upwind...


Personally, I try to stick to the ideal of not introducing anything new at a Nationals or above... the mast is a pretty big change, and surely sheets differently. I don't want to be learning something new - my two or three days on the water before a Nationals or Worlds is to make sure everything is working on the boat, and getting a good look at the race area conditions. Of course, sometimes I've had to break that personal guideline - at the F18 Worlds in Long Beach, I was on a completely new platform, without even other people's experience or a tuning guide to work with. I was grateful for the opportunity, but we didn't do the boat justice at all - too much to learn, and the wrong time to be learning. At least for me - obviously, some sailors can hit stride right out of the gate. My neural pathways are too calcified.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD [Re: samc99us] #260650
06/25/13 08:31 AM
06/25/13 08:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
Originally Posted by samc99us
You can sail any boat you want for recreation Jay...


Sure, but would you want an N17 with all its high-tech gizmos and narrow performance groove for recreational sailing?

Stuff built strictly for speed (IMHO) seems to take some of the fun (read: ease) out of recreational sailing.

Now that I'm down in the 175-180# range, maybe I can fit on your teensy boats again... If I can find a scrawney driver...

But I will have to put a swim noodle on the boom. Packing 6'1" of me under a deck sweeping boom in a chinese gybe gets a little tricky (gotta work on my yoga pretzel moves). As Seth knows, it doesn't take much for me to sweep a driver off the back of a boat...

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 06/25/13 08:33 AM.

Jay

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD [Re: BadLatitude1337] #260652
06/25/13 09:16 AM
06/25/13 09:16 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Major differences between N17 and F18 are the curved foils and the carbon rig. Like any high performance boat the issue is when the breeze builds, tough to sail any of these without good crew.

If I'm stuck without a crew for a Florida event I'll let you know

Last edited by samc99us; 06/25/13 09:26 AM.

Scorpion F18
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