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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #260850
07/02/13 12:17 PM
07/02/13 12:17 PM
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There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.


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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: catman] #260851
07/02/13 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by catman
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.


I haven't read it - but I understood that the rule previously prohibited adjustable tabs on the rudders. All foils had to be fixed below the water and non adjustable. You could adjust rake of the foil to modify the lift (perhaps this is what had to be fixed on the rudder at a set time prior to racing) but you couldn't have an articulated widget below the surface.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #260857
07/02/13 01:59 PM
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Is it prohibited to manipulate the entire rudder vs. just the wings on the rudder? Isn't that what they do to the boards now to maintain some semblance of control (move the entire daggerboard in the well)?

-Rob Vaden



Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #260859
07/02/13 02:20 PM
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If you don't subscribe to Sailing World (USA version) go look for this month's issue on a news stand. The entire issue is about the AC and there is a very good article about the design work that went into the boards/rudders for foiling.

The "Easy" button would be, just let them have the adjustable tabs, like the Moth and some other foiling boats do.

Anyone know why they outlawed adjustable tabs in the first place? Wouldn't that make the boats safer? It would help to prevent both the leap frog and pitch pole.

Sure, it will cost more money, but hey, it's a drop in the buckett at this point in their spending.


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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: catman] #260865
07/02/13 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by catman
There seems to be some confusion or I don't get it. The proposed rule change regarding rudder elevators does not allow changes to be made during racing. It allows changes up until the warning signal. The previous rule allowed changes up until 8 am day of the race. I assume the boats are measured the day of each race. There are a couple other aspects like size but the main one is adjustably.


That is the way I understand the rule and don't get what the big deal is. The winglets can not be adjusted while racing only before the warning signal to adjust for the wind strength since the wind builds during the day. The only advantage to Oracle is they have been training with adjustable winglets to find out the best angle for conditions which the other teams could have been doing, but seem to have just chosen to have a one angle for all conditions. I guess Oracle could set there winglets for light conditions and have an advantage if the winds stayed light , but could be at a disadvantage if the winds picked up. The teams could have put different rudders on each day before and just guess which would be best for conditions for that day.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Timbo] #260866
07/02/13 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
If you don't subscribe to Sailing World (USA version) go look for this month's issue on a news stand. The entire issue is about the AC and there is a very good article about the design work that went into the boards/rudders for foiling.

The "Easy" button would be, just let them have the adjustable tabs, like the Moth and some other foiling boats do.

Anyone know why they outlawed adjustable tabs in the first place? Wouldn't that make the boats safer? It would help to prevent both the leap frog and pitch pole.

Sure, it will cost more money, but hey, it's a drop in the buckett at this point in their spending.


I think the initial intent was to disallow foiling...or make it so difficult that it wouldn't be practical. The problem entered when someone figured out how to do it within the rules.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #260867
07/02/13 03:23 PM
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I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam.
The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).

Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense.
Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Tony_F18] #260868
07/02/13 03:25 PM
07/02/13 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam.
The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).

Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense.
Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.


I know ... the thought of that is chilling.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Redtwin] #260869
07/02/13 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Redtwin
Is it prohibited to manipulate the entire rudder vs. just the wings on the rudder? Isn't that what they do to the boards now to maintain some semblance of control (move the entire dagger board in the well)?

-Rob Vaden



The rules forbid the any movement of the rudder post.

The other part thats causing a stir is LR and NZ have asymmetrical rudder foils. The leg of the T is longer on the inside than the outside. OR has symmetrical foils, both legs of the T are the same. One of the rule changes allow the T to extend outside the max beam of the boat. This is thought benefit OR because this will allow OR to increase the size of the foil to make the boat more stable when foiling. NZ says this would be more dangerous because if someone fell off like Spithill did they could be hit by the foil. I believe Race Management back tracked on this rule. The word is OR has not sailed with T foils that extend past max beam. Another item is RM wants design and load testing data of rudder T foils on asymmetrical equipped boats only.





Last edited by catman; 07/02/13 03:53 PM.

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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Tony_F18] #260870
07/02/13 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think another big issues for ETNZ is the ACRM recommendation to allow rudder foils to extend outside the max beam.
The kiwis have invested a lot of time to design asymmetric rudder foils (one side wider than the other).

Their (official) argument is that extending them outside the max beam is dangerous for crew members should they fall into the drink, which makes sense.
Dont think a helmet (or anything!) will protect you from hitting that at 40kts.


Which takes the argument back to "outside the max beam" and away from adjustable foils. The 12th hour safety rule calling for a change to symmetrical rudder foils is utterly absurd and does absolutely nothing to enhance safety.


Philip
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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #260871
07/02/13 04:01 PM
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LR boss Max Sirena explains...

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #260872
07/02/13 04:08 PM
07/02/13 04:08 PM
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I think some people are losing track of what is important here.

If Oracle in fact can't foil without these rule changes then you can go ahead and kiss multihulls in the Americas Cup goodbye - forever.

I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup, we'll have awesome boats to look at and watch race. If ETNZ or Prada win it, then we're back to the boring old monoslug 4knot sh*t boxes that are about as exciting to watch as paint drying.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #260875
07/02/13 04:12 PM
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In other news, I read that Artemis II might launch this week.
Will be interesting to see what they have come up with.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: ThunderMuffin] #260876
07/02/13 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.
...
I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup...

I agree that some are losing track of what's important. I disagree with the second statement though. I'd rather see ETNZ win the AC fairly and take the event to Dubai in monohulls, than GGYC/Oracle keep the cup by cheating.

Sadly,
Eric

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: ThunderMuffin] #260879
07/02/13 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Undecided
I think some people are losing track of what is important here.

If Oracle in fact can't foil without these rule changes then you can go ahead and kiss multihulls in the Americas Cup goodbye - forever.

I don't care if they have to win by hook or crook, as long as Oracle has the cup, we'll have awesome boats to look at and watch race. If ETNZ or Prada win it, then we're back to the boring old monoslug 4knot sh*t boxes that are about as exciting to watch as paint drying.


I'm not sure about that...I don't know that they haven't caught the multihull bug (I hope so anyway).


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #260880
07/02/13 07:08 PM
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Philip
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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #260881
07/02/13 07:43 PM
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Did I read correctly that LR will not be using a gennaker?

Last edited by bacho; 07/02/13 07:44 PM.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: bacho] #260884
07/02/13 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bacho
Did I read correctly that LR will not be using a gennaker?


That's what it said.

Not surprising, actually. On a tour I took at the Oracle base last year, the guide was discussing how, when the boats get going fast enough, they're always sailing upwind due to the effect of boatspeed on the apparent wind angle. In many ways, foiling is at least as much of a game changer as an additional hull or two...

Mike

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: brucat] #260885
07/02/13 08:51 PM
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Another reason not to carry a gennaker is that it's virtually impossible to pull off a foiling jibe with one.

The gennaker has to be partially furled, jibed, then unfurled. The extra speed/time gained when you're up on the foils is more than offset by the time spent off the foils in the jibe.

At least one team (ETNZ) has a self-tacking jib - which may partially explain why they were the first to achieve a fully-foiling jibe.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #260889
07/03/13 07:48 AM
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There you have it!


Philip
USA #1006
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